Who can be salvaged?

[DB10GOONER]

See augie I don't get that. The chav game finished you? A game when every one of our players (including the much lauded Sanchez) were either total shit or at best poor?

Did that game finish you with every other player? Because they were all shit in that game.

Are you seriously trying to tell me if Ozil left Arsenal he would not get picked up by a big club? Sorry buddy but that is just silly. You know Madrid have a first option buy back clause on him right?

To say we can't be successful because he doesn't get down and dirty is too simplistic. It also ignores the fact that he wins as much possession in the attacking third as Sanchez and Hazard do. And the attacking third is where a number 10 or a false 9 should operate. How many tackles tracking back do you see Messi make or did you see Bergkamp make? Very few because they win the ball in the attacking third where they should be.

[DB10GOONER]

It's not so much his laziness, as that's lazy thinking, more his inability to make his mark on games (when given the freedom to do so) and especially when it's really required.

Actually I don't fully agree with that point. His style is languid so he often looks like he is just strolling through games when in fact he is creating chances and space and putting other players through with deft passing. He's not an Henry type player that storms through defences. He uses the ball economically.

Last season when Giroud went off the boil and Ozil missed Henry's PL assist record by 2 assists he was still creating dozens of chances that Giroud failed to convert into assists by scoring.

Tbh I've now even bored myself talking about Ozil.

Good!

Augie fucked that up for you...

[augie]

See augie I don't get that. The chav game finished you? A game when every one of our players (including the much lauded Sanchez) were either total shit or at best poor?

Did that game finish you with every other player? Because they were all shit in that game.

Are you seriously trying to tell me if Ozil left Arsenal he would not get picked up by a big club? Sorry buddy but that is just silly. You know Madrid have a first option buy back clause on him right?

To say we can't be successful because he doesn't get down and dirty is too simplistic. It also ignores the fact that he wins as much possession in the attacking third as Sanchez and Hazard do. And the attacking third is where a number 10 or a false 9 should operate. How many tackles tracking back do you see Messi make or did you see Bergkamp make? Very few because they win the ball in the attacking third where they should be.

You are an oldie like myself, so you will know that throughout our history there have been players who weren't great but who were popular with the fans cos you knew that they would die on the pitch for the team/club/fans ....... for me ozil is the complete opposite of that - when you rightly point out that his team-mates were also shit, I will agree with that (with the exception of ox who we have already disagreed on), but most of them at least tried and most of them try on a consistent basis no matter how shit they are (wally and giroud are the exceptions to that rule ).

Again I am an oldie so if you give me a choice between style and substance, I will pick substance every time - I grew up watching "ugly football" (for want of a better phrase), so I am more than ready to ditch style if it isn't in the teams best interests. The enjoyment of watching beautiful football is something that I have never allowed to become a priority to me, simply cos I knew that it would be short lived (no-one could seriously expect the type of football we seen in the early 2000's to last) - it is maybe easier for me to disregard the likes of ozil because of that mindset and an acknowledgement that to gain maximum benefit of an ozil, we would need to buy at least 4 top quality physical players to play alongside him, and we all know that wont happen. Therefore it makes more sense to me to sell ozil and buy a romford pele type player who will give more to the team on a consistent basis

[DB10GOONER]

See augie I don't get that. The chav game finished you? A game when every one of our players (including the much lauded Sanchez) were either total shit or at best poor?

Did that game finish you with every other player? Because they were all shit in that game.

Are you seriously trying to tell me if Ozil left Arsenal he would not get picked up by a big club? Sorry buddy but that is just silly. You know Madrid have a first option buy back clause on him right?

To say we can't be successful because he doesn't get down and dirty is too simplistic. It also ignores the fact that he wins as much possession in the attacking third as Sanchez and Hazard do. And the attacking third is where a number 10 or a false 9 should operate. How many tackles tracking back do you see Messi make or did you see Bergkamp make? Very few because they win the ball in the attacking third where they should be.

You are an oldie like myself, so you will know that throughout our history there have been players who weren't great but who were popular with the fans cos you knew that they would die on the pitch for the team/club/fans ....... for me ozil is the complete opposite of that - when you rightly point out that his team-mates were also shit, I will agree with that (with the exception of ox who we have already disagreed on), but most of them at least tried and most of them try on a consistent basis no matter how shit they are (wally and giroud are the exceptions to that rule ).

Again I am an oldie so if you give me a choice between style and substance, I will pick substance every time - I grew up watching "ugly football" (for want of a better phrase), so I am more than ready to ditch style if it isn't in the teams best interests. The enjoyment of watching beautiful football is something that I have never allowed to become a priority to me, simply cos I knew that it would be short lived (no-one could seriously expect the type of football we seen in the early 2000's to last) - it is maybe easier for me to disregard the likes of ozil because of that mindset and an acknowledgement that to gain maximum benefit of an ozil, we would need to buy at least 4 top quality physical players to play alongside him, and we all know that wont happen. Therefore it makes more sense to me to sell ozil and buy a romford pele type player who will give more to the team on a consistent basis

To a certain extent I agree with you. I've said before if we are not going to use Ozil and Sanchez correctly we may as well let both go. Particularly Ozil as Sanchez's play style is more flexible to different systems.

But for me I don't think it should be down to an either/or choice. I think we should have Romford Pele type players and Ozil type players in a team. A mix of power physicality and pure guile and technical ability.

I don't agree though that Ozil is style over substance. He is not like Ramsey trying tricks and flicks. He is a very simple footballer in a lot of ways. He picks out the simple pass that creates chances. His assists and chances-created record prove he has substance.

[arseofacrow]

Just admit DB10 that when Ozil under performs, which he does. he derserves it in the neck as much as the others. He get great credit when he does the great things. I think it's no more than that. People over react? Big surprise - we're football fans. And telling people they're stupid if they see it a different way is for another thread - the EU referendum thread

Now stop!

[DB10GOONER]

Just admit DB10 that when Ozil under performs, which he does. he derserves it in the neck as much as the others. He get great credit when he does the great things. I think it's no more than that. People over react? Big surprise - we're football fans. And telling people they're stupid if they see it a different way is for another thread - the EU referendum thread

Now stop!

If you are gonna shoota da moutha offa at least read what I've written first...

I've said on numerous occasions that in certain matches Ozil has not performed what he is there to do: create chances. And he like every player should be criticised when that happens.

What is stupid is when people make statements like "he's lazy" or "he's shit" when the actual facts indicate the opposite.

Now stop being stupid arseofamerkel.

[NickF]

I know Ozil is primarily an attacking player but is it too much to ask for him to at least make an effort to win a ball back if he just lost it??

[augie]

I know Ozil is primarily an attacking player but is it too much to ask for him to at least make an effort to win a ball back if he just lost it??

[DB10GOONER]

I know Ozil is primarily an attacking player but is it too much to ask for him to at least make an effort to win a ball back if he just lost it??

Of course not. But to be perfectly honest it doesn't upset me if he doesn't - same as it didn't upset me when DB10 and Overmars and Pires didn't. That's not what those type of players are there for.

What does upset me is when our fullbacks and our DM's don't bother to try win back the ball they just lost.

Again though, you choose to ignore that Ozil's winning of possession in the attacking third is comparable with nearly any other PL attacking player and better than most.

[g88ner]

I like my number 10 to get his share of goals and assists, as you can't play that far forward and not defend without significantly contributing. 19 assists last season was a great effort; we just needed more goals from him... sadly, Ozil this season has 5 league goals and only a handful of assists. For a player of his ability, playing number 10 for Arsenal, we should expect far more.

He's one of our best players, and I hope he stays, but this season has been very underwhelming.

[DB10GOONER]

I like my number 10 to get his share of goals and assists, as you can't play that far forward and not defend without significantly contributing. 19 assists last season was a great effort; we just needed more goals from him... sadly, Ozil this season has 5 league goals and only a handful of assists. For a player of his ability, playing number 10 for Arsenal, we should expect far more.

He's one of our best players, and I hope he stays, but this season has been very underwhelming.

Have to agree. But of course we can say that about every one of our players this season. I hope I'm wrong but this season might be the one where Ozil has just said to himself "fuck this I'm sick of playing with shit and average players. I don't care anymore. Meh."

I mean it must have been soul destroying to create so many assists and chances last season only to watch Giroud piss away so many of them in the second half of the season. His assists record last season should have blown Henry's record out of the water but Wenger persisted with Giroud after he had gone into goal-drought mode and instead of assists Ozil only got credited with chances-created.

[augie]

Anyone who watched hazard for the chavs today, will see the reason why Gooners are turning against ozil in increasing numbers - the chavs were playing against a physical and defensive team who have an outstanding home record, and hazard never stopped running, and looked to get on the ball as much as possible. Maybe technically hazard isn't as good as ozil, but he is still a top quality player, and his influence on games far exceeds ozil Today is exactly the type of game and atmosphere that would see ozil goes awol

[DB10GOONER]

Anyone who watched hazard for the chavs today, will see the reason why Gooners are turning against ozil in increasing numbers - the chavs were playing against a physical and defensive team who have an outstanding home record, and hazard never stopped running, and looked to get on the ball as much as possible. Maybe technically hazard isn't as good as ozil, but he is still a top quality player, and his influence on games far exceeds ozil Today is exactly the type of game and atmosphere that would see ozil goes awol

And yet for all Hazard's running around the champions-elect only managed a draw.

His influence yesterday was zilch augie. He failed to create space with all his movement, he only had one half decent shot which IIRC went a mile over the bar and he looked as frustrated as Ozil often looks. Maybe you picked the wrong game to use Hazard to prove a point...?

TBH I rate Hazard very highly, always have, but compared to Ozil he plays in a team with better players around him and with a manager that has some inkling of tactics and in-game management. Put Hazard in our team and I doubt he would look as good as he often does in that chav team. I don't think you can just flat compare Hazard to Ozil. Context is everything.

[northbank123]

Maybe some stats might help the comparison DB10

[DB10GOONER]

Maybe some stats might help the comparison DB10

stats grrrrrrr...