Hillsborough charges

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SPARKSY
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by SPARKSY »

Herd wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:06 pm
About fucking time thats what I say !

Should have happened 25 years ago and we could have thatcher and her ministers plus graham kelly in the dock too !

There are different levels of culpability here though !
Appalling Policing is one thing ,for that the man in charge should be sacked perhaps some minor charges brought !
Poor condition and design of the ground which the FA Sheff Weds and Others knew about after near misses at the ground is another ,
that's criminal negligence.
The deliberate political suppression and manipulation of the truth is conspiracy.


For me Hillborough and Heysel are different subjects ,keeping to Hillsborough its takenb a long time for the families to get Justice and congratulate them on their vim and vigour in the face of criminal stonewalling these last 28 years !

I agree with that. There was a chain of events that contributed to what happened and many to be held accountable at all levels.
However, what must also be added is the part the LIverpool fans played in the crush. It was well known at the time that Scousers (Liverpool and Everton) used to turn up at games, in numbers, without tickets and try and blag their way in ( see 86 Cup Final where supporters were seen openly climbing up the outside of Wembley to get in).
*Those same supporters, without tickets, who would have been in the pubs drinking for hours beforehand ( and we all did it) and turned up outside the ground 15 minutes before KO and then saw an opportunity to push through the gates when they were opened because of the overcrowding outside, are also to blame as much as those being put in the dock. However, as we all know, it is very politically incorrect to blame Liverpool fans.

For me, Heysel and Hillsborough are very much connected. Same supporters for one, same issue of crushing and same issue of innocent supporters being killed.
Whilst the innocent deserve answers, so they should also be pointing fingers at their own supporters.

* To back up my argument and i know for fact, is that my wifes brother-in-law, and his mates (all scousers) knowingly bought fake tickets and got in to the ground in Istanbul for the CL final
Last edited by SPARKSY on Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

xisstential
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by xisstential »

Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:10 am
DB10GOONER wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:33 am
Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:14 am
Of course it wouldn't have happened at all if there hadn't been fences up ,strange no one ever mentions that !
The ticket-less latecomers (none of us know if they were with or without tickets ) are often blamed but if simple procedures ie have several buffer checks b4 u reach the gates , as in previous years had been followed there wouldn't have been a crush.
People often turn up late and run towards the ground ,it happens especially with the bad traffic poor bus service etc so again its hard to blame the mickeys there.
A lot of peoples opinions on Hillsborough are clouded by their blind hatred of scousers !
Im not a scouser fan or apologist I just see things for what I think they are !
And the counter argument is if those fans that turned up late without tickets had stayed away then it would not have happened at all either! This whole modern culture of "it has to be someone else's fault, I can't be expected to take responsibility for my own actions" pisses me off.

And whilst most right thinking people will accept absolutely that there were many contibuting factors including fencing, poor policing, poor organisation etc etc I think most right minded people would also think none of those things can excuse the group of Liverpool fans that turned up late without tickets.

Also, I don't think many people have a "blind hatred of scousers" tbh, but I do think many people find the hypocrisy of their fans a bit distasteful. Given the very nature of the Hillsborough tragedy I find it unforgiveable that fans of that club in particular still turn up without tickets, often pissed up, and still try and push their way into grounds in large numbers.
You simply dont know if the late arrivals had tickets or were pissed up DB ,do you ?
And we never will.....what solicitor is going to be insane enough to ask that question or even suggest it??

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DB10GOONER
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by DB10GOONER »

Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:10 am
DB10GOONER wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:33 am
Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:14 am
Of course it wouldn't have happened at all if there hadn't been fences up ,strange no one ever mentions that !
The ticket-less latecomers (none of us know if they were with or without tickets ) are often blamed but if simple procedures ie have several buffer checks b4 u reach the gates , as in previous years had been followed there wouldn't have been a crush.
People often turn up late and run towards the ground ,it happens especially with the bad traffic poor bus service etc so again its hard to blame the mickeys there.
A lot of peoples opinions on Hillsborough are clouded by their blind hatred of scousers !
Im not a scouser fan or apologist I just see things for what I think they are !
And the counter argument is if those fans that turned up late without tickets had stayed away then it would not have happened at all either! This whole modern culture of "it has to be someone else's fault, I can't be expected to take responsibility for my own actions" pisses me off.

And whilst most right thinking people will accept absolutely that there were many contibuting factors including fencing, poor policing, poor organisation etc etc I think most right minded people would also think none of those things can excuse the group of Liverpool fans that turned up late without tickets.

Also, I don't think many people have a "blind hatred of scousers" tbh, but I do think many people find the hypocrisy of their fans a bit distasteful. Given the very nature of the Hillsborough tragedy I find it unforgiveable that fans of that club in particular still turn up without tickets, often pissed up, and still try and push their way into grounds in large numbers.
You simply dont know if the late arrivals had tickets or were pissed up DB ,do you ?
Fair point Herd. But again there is a counter argument there - you simply dont know that the late arrivals did have tickets and were not pissed up Herd, do you?

But given that you are like myself an old hand, been to a lot of games over the decades, seen most things, do you honestly in your guts think they all had tickets and were not pissed up? Given your experience of going to games over the years? Given that witnesses there that day stated that many were - before the media witch hunt hounded their testimony out of the proceedings. Given the Liverpool fans history of doing exactly those things and still doing those things? You cannot be that naive, mate. I think both you and I know there was a big chunk of fans that turned up late without tickets, many pissed up, and decided to try and jib in for free.

You know, to accept that the some Liverpool fans that did turn up late and without tickets are partly responsible doesn't mean you are excusing the police or the FA for their role in the tragedy.

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DB10GOONER
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by DB10GOONER »

xisstential wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:33 am
Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:10 am
DB10GOONER wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:33 am
Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:14 am
Of course it wouldn't have happened at all if there hadn't been fences up ,strange no one ever mentions that !
The ticket-less latecomers (none of us know if they were with or without tickets ) are often blamed but if simple procedures ie have several buffer checks b4 u reach the gates , as in previous years had been followed there wouldn't have been a crush.
People often turn up late and run towards the ground ,it happens especially with the bad traffic poor bus service etc so again its hard to blame the mickeys there.
A lot of peoples opinions on Hillsborough are clouded by their blind hatred of scousers !
Im not a scouser fan or apologist I just see things for what I think they are !
And the counter argument is if those fans that turned up late without tickets had stayed away then it would not have happened at all either! This whole modern culture of "it has to be someone else's fault, I can't be expected to take responsibility for my own actions" pisses me off.

And whilst most right thinking people will accept absolutely that there were many contibuting factors including fencing, poor policing, poor organisation etc etc I think most right minded people would also think none of those things can excuse the group of Liverpool fans that turned up late without tickets.

Also, I don't think many people have a "blind hatred of scousers" tbh, but I do think many people find the hypocrisy of their fans a bit distasteful. Given the very nature of the Hillsborough tragedy I find it unforgiveable that fans of that club in particular still turn up without tickets, often pissed up, and still try and push their way into grounds in large numbers.
You simply dont know if the late arrivals had tickets or were pissed up DB ,do you ?
And we never will.....what solicitor is going to be insane enough to ask that question or even suggest it??
Very good and valid point, mate. I lost a mate who is a Scouse fan because I once suggested to him their fans were at least partly to blame for it. He had an absolute meltdown, calling me a Sun propagandist and brainwashed etc etc. We were never the same as friends after that and we just drifted apart. I have other friends who are Scouse fans and tbh I wouldn't bring it up in front of them. Not worth losing a friend over. :roll:

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Herd
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by Herd »

I wasn't making a case for absolution,deification,or more importantly exoneration of all Liverpool fans behaviour that day DB ,I was only de-bunking your long held assertion that all those who arrives late were drunk and ticket-less and thus were the proximate cause .

Similarly nobody needs to tell me what scousers were like in those days a lot of em were fooking evil and like and as you pointed out it nearly happened in 1980 when we played there when their end was massively overcrowded !
I first went to anfailed in 1974, i was there in 78 in the league cup too ,it was white hot !

I've said earlier I don't think the OB on the day were guilty of anything more than gross incompetence,arrogance, and negligence certainly not manslaughter as there are just too many other contributory factors ,which is why they will get off .
I'm only saying also despite peoples denials , that a lot of peoples opinions of what happened depend largely on what they think of the scousers !

xisstential
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by xisstential »

Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:48 am
I wasn't making a case for absolution,deification,or more importantly exoneration of all Liverpool fans behaviour that day DB ,I was only de-bunking your long held assertion that all those who arrives late were drunk and ticket-less and thus were the proximate cause .

Similarly nobody needs to tell me what scousers were like in those days a lot of em were fooking evil and like and as you pointed out it nearly happened in 1980 when we played there when their end was massively overcrowded !
I first went to anfailed in 1974, i was there in 78 in the league cup too ,it was white hot !

I've said earlier I don't think the OB on the day were guilty of anything more than gross incompetence,arrogance, and negligence certainly not manslaughter as there are just too many other contributory factors ,which is why they will get off .
I'm only saying also despite peoples denials , that a lot of peoples opinions of what happened depend largely on what they think of the scousers !
Herd,I just cannot see anybody who gets charged "Getting off" If anybody gets away with a slap on the wrist there will be more howls of protest and probably lead to further appeals. The question is what will the families,or the people of Liverpool itself, accept as "justice"?

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DB10GOONER
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by DB10GOONER »

Herd wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:48 am
I wasn't making a case for absolution,deification,or more importantly exoneration of all Liverpool fans behaviour that day DB ,I was only de-bunking your long held assertion that all those who arrives late were drunk and ticket-less and thus were the proximate cause .

Similarly nobody needs to tell me what scousers were like in those days a lot of em were fooking evil and like and as you pointed out it nearly happened in 1980 when we played there when their end was massively overcrowded !
I first went to anfailed in 1974, i was there in 78 in the league cup too ,it was white hot !

I've said earlier I don't think the OB on the day were guilty of anything more than gross incompetence,arrogance, and negligence certainly not manslaughter as there are just too many other contributory factors ,which is why they will get off .
I'm only saying also despite peoples denials , that a lot of peoples opinions of what happened depend largely on what they think of the scousers !
I should clarify I don't think every scouse fan that turned up late was pissed and without a ticket - although I do believe many were. My real bone of contention is the group of fans that turned up without tickets, whether pissed or sober, late or early, they certainly had an impact on what happened and should not have gone to the ground.

In fairness you are probably right that the scouser's reputation has done them no favours with other fans. but then those stories of them bunking into grounds, mugging their own fans for CL final tickets etc are hardly going to endear them to other fans in general.

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Herd
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by Herd »

Herd,I just cannot see anybody who gets charged "Getting off" If anybody gets away with a slap on the wrist there will be more howls of protest and probably lead to further appeals. The question is what will the families,or the people of Liverpool itself, accept as "justice"?
I know what you mean there and their chance of a fair trial is slim but I'm just thinking that the burden of proof for unlawful killing is big one and with so many contributory factors I can't see them getting convicted but if they do it will get quashed on appeal .

Those who should go down for it are the owners of Sheff Weds,Graham Kelley and all those who perverted the course of justice bu thats another story !

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DB10GOONER
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by DB10GOONER »

You know, one of the saddest things about all of this is that the human tragedy of 96 people (many of them so young) dying at a football match is often kind of lost amid the hyperbole and accusations and shit media coverage. :|

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Herd
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by Herd »

DB10GOONER wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:20 am
You know, one of the saddest things about all of this is that the human tragedy of 96 people (many of them so young) dying at a football match is often kind of lost amid the hyperbole and accusations and shit media coverage. :|
AMEN

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bergkamp10
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by bergkamp10 »

northbank123 wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:50 pm
If there are sufficient grounds and prospects for bringing charges then they should be brought. Just a shame they're being brought now.

The families would say the fact they are only being brought 28 years later is testament to thescale of the cover-up. The other side of that argument is that charges are only being brought now because of the perennial political and media campaign, and because only a fool would get on the wrong side of the behemoth of a campaign by making a manifestly unpopular decision.

Can't imagine any trials will be held in the North-West and wouldn't be surprised if this led to a bunch of no verdicts after several years of media circus and tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers money.

Not much danger of getting a fair trial after decades of media outcry about this - good luck stopping the jury from hearing any of the news reports. Plenty of instances of 'near misses' before Hillsbrough and there was clearly a huge degree of police culpability (putting aside the cover-up) - but if any of the defence legal team dare to reference a suggestion that any Liverpool fans were drunk, late or pushy etc then their client will get crucified. Doesn't exonerate the police by any stretch of the imagination but it is an important factor in causation and therefore crucial to a manslaughter charge.
The whole time it has taken & arguments are indeed justified. However grounds in those days were bloody awful. Hillsbrough should never of been used in my mind for any FA Cup Semi.

The case will drag on for years and there really isn't any winners now.

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Allgunsblazin
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by Allgunsblazin »

Too true grounds were awful add the Miners Strike 84/85 albeit before Hillsboro, it was in effect North and South not good days at all, attended a family Newcastle away game at Nottingham Forest, big police escorts as you can imagine what with Nottinghamshire pits towing the line with Thatcher with screams of "scabs"
Then the Bradford fire 11/5/85, 56 dead, then on the 29/5/85 the crush and death of those 39 poor Juve fans, it did put me off football for a long time...
Unsafe old stadia, perimeter fencing around grounds, overall poor treatment of fans by whatever force you care to mention, culminating to Hillsboro...
The biggest tragedy was that the game kicked off at 14.59, one minute before the appointed time, I will tell you now that the FA and the old bill were at fault with that, because of their insistence that all games should kick off on time, had they delayed the kick off to let's say 4pm, we may never have had 96 victims, you say hindsight is a wonderful thing!
I say fuck off, it's common sense, which these OLD pillars of our society did not have!...

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GoonerMuzz
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by GoonerMuzz »

The one thing that has always irritated me is the way the Match Commander has been lambasted over his decision to open the gate, what people forget is that due to the orders he was given and the crowd control in place on the day he was put in an unenviable position, people were already beginning to be crushed outside the ground and that was why the decision was taken to open the gate. Much as he may have been a *word censored* along with his superiors post match with the cover up at the time he had a decision to make and made it. Crowd control is one of the worst jobs to ever undertake in a volatile situation and noone could have got it right with the way the fans behaved. There is an element of personal and collective responsibility that is being overlooked in this.

The whole management of the crowd up to the point of entering the ground was poor and funnelling is an extremely poor way of dealing with any crowd control situation, however that said it was standard procedure in those days, i cannot think of many instances in tight situations like those around that end of Hillsborough where the same tactics weren't used and even now it is still used in some cases.

Another point that escapes scrutiny in the media is why if crowd control was so poor there was no trouble at the Forest end of the ground, again we come back to the same old point with the Liverpool fans doing what we know they very often did and are still known to do.

None of this excuses the tragedy, and South Yorks police did themselves no favours with the cover up afterwards, nor the FA or SWFC for that matter but there is way more to the reasons for this tragedy than just poor policing, again though, i have the feeling that this is a case of scape goating, after all the Match Commanders Tactics for the day would have had to have been approved by his superiors but i don't see any one higher in the Police chain of command on trial.

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Herd
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by Herd »

Muzz its about the design of the stands
The Forest end was a massive open end with multiple access points ..............and exits.
The leppings lane was a death trap ,the only access to the terrace was via 2 concrete tunnels on either side with no middle exit there were not enough turnstiles and they were all situated next to the tunnel on the right Ive been in there and it hasn't altered even now except there are now seats .
So once they opened the gate to an already overcrowded crowded scene it ended in a crush from which there was no escape except the pitch and the Police didn't open the gates until the dying was well underway. In fact they were gleefully whacking desperate peoples fingers with their truncheons as they drew their last breaths clinging to the fences !
There is no doubt that a lot of people converged on the turnstiles late BUT if you have a Police filtering system you can prevent that very easily ,in fact the Police did it the year before as they knew of problems experienced on previous occasions .
Similarly the Stadium Owners and the FA knew of the problems at that end in previous years so they should have done something about it .

Obviously there would have been more scousers in there without tickets ,that's what they do so they have a part of the blame too as do the turnstile operators who let them in for a few quid on the gate.

The Sheffield OB as Db have pointed out are complete morons and the PIC was not competent .

Its is a combination of all these factors that caused the crush but it was the failure of the OB to react that made it much much worse !

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Perryashburtongroves
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Re: Hillsborough charges

Post by Perryashburtongroves »

Typical. There's been spate of other horrible events recently so the bindippers have to come out and seek attention. Give it up. Nobody cares any more.

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