Hillsborough charges

[Redarmy]

Honestly, is all this stuff still going on? Fucking hell. Perhaps when they've dragged this out and cost the taxpayer more millions, the bindippers could turn their attention towards identifying those who murdered 39 Juventus fans at Heysel.

quietly pushed under the carpet that one....

[Rugby Gooner]

About fucking time thats what I say !

Should have happened 25 years ago and we could have thatcher and her ministers plus graham kelly in the dock too !

There are different levels of culpability here though !
Appalling Policing is one thing ,for that the man in charge should be sacked perhaps some minor charges brought !
Poor condition and design of the ground which the FA Sheff Weds and Others knew about after near misses at the ground is another ,
that's criminal negligence.
The deliberate political suppression and manipulation of the truth is conspiracy.

For me Hillborough and Heysel are different subjects ,keeping to Hillsborough its takenb a long time for the families to get Justice and congratulate them on their vim and vigour in the face of criminal stonewalling these last 28 years !

I agree with some of what you say,but what really pisses me off is the fact that the Bin Dippers will not accept ANY part of the blame for what happened at Hillsborough or Heysel.
They are either in complete denial or fucking liars,people can take their pick.

[goonertux]

Yes, criminal charges is right but should be for corruption, negligence and mismanagement. Manslaughter is wrong in my opinion. It was the culmination of a lot of factors, and the biggest of these were the probable thousands of fans who turned up without tickets and saw an opportunity. As we all know, they always did it wherever they went, particularly big cup games and Wembley. I would guess most of them have wiped their conscience clean now there is someone else to blame. Don't get me wrong, what happened on the day, and then the absolutely disgraceful actions of the authorities afterwards (all the way up to Thatcher) was repulsive, but there has been a major factor just ignored.

[northbank123]

If there are sufficient grounds and prospects for bringing charges then they should be brought. Just a shame they're being brought now.

The families would say the fact they are only being brought 28 years later is testament to thescale of the cover-up. The other side of that argument is that charges are only being brought now because of the perennial political and media campaign, and because only a fool would get on the wrong side of the behemoth of a campaign by making a manifestly unpopular decision.

Can't imagine any trials will be held in the North-West and wouldn't be surprised if this led to a bunch of no verdicts after several years of media circus and tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers money.

Not much danger of getting a fair trial after decades of media outcry about this - good luck stopping the jury from hearing any of the news reports. Plenty of instances of 'near misses' before Hillsbrough and there was clearly a huge degree of police culpability (putting aside the cover-up) - but if any of the defence legal team dare to reference a suggestion that any Liverpool fans were drunk, late or pushy etc then their client will get crucified. Doesn't exonerate the police by any stretch of the imagination but it is an important factor in causation and therefore crucial to a manslaughter charge.

[northbank123]

Does anybody know whether the manslaughter charges are for unlawful act manslaughter or gross negligence manslaughter?

[Perryashburtongroves]

About fucking time thats what I say !

Should have happened 25 years ago and we could have thatcher and her ministers plus graham kelly in the dock too !

There are different levels of culpability here though !
Appalling Policing is one thing ,for that the man in charge should be sacked perhaps some minor charges brought !
Poor condition and design of the ground which the FA Sheff Weds and Others knew about after near misses at the ground is another ,
that's criminal negligence.
The deliberate political suppression and manipulation of the truth is conspiracy.

For me Hillborough and Heysel are different subjects ,keeping to Hillsborough its takenb a long time for the families to get Justice and congratulate them on their vim and vigour in the face of criminal stonewalling these last 28 years !

I agree with some of what you say,but what really pisses me off is the fact that the Bin Dippers will not accept ANY part of the blame for what happened at Hillsborough or Heysel.
They are either in complete denial or fucking liars,people can take their pick.

Why after all these exhaustative inquires has nobody ever in a court of law asked whether the reaction of the police and the managing of bindipper fans was ever influenced by the events of Heysel? Surely that is relevant and telling? They were not trusted after Hesyel and had behaved scum up and down the country for years so surely, Heysel and the fact they murdered 39 opposition fans had something to do with the way they were policed. But, that would mean brining Hesyel up and the bindippers accepting some blame. This really is the most tedious, vindictive shit in recent memory. Fucking move on. Fucking accept blame for Hesyel.

[Bradywasking]

As a believer in justice I would say if anyone deserves to face charges over Hillsborough then they must face them...but even if there are convictions will it be enough for Liverpool supporters? That is part of a problem I have with this , the other part being the lack of responsibility by the Liverpool fans on anything..I'm sorry if this offends but it is ,in my opinion, illogical to say Liverpool fans behaviour was not partially the cause of the crush at Hillsborough.
Will the prosecution want to know the exact reason the gates were opened or will the fact they were opened be enough?

[Herd]

The people who jibbed in of course contributed to the disaster . Theres a couple of thosand of them at least .

[nut flush gooner]

The people who jibbed in of course contributed to the disaster . Theres a couple of thosand of them at least .

Exactly, if the scousers hadnt turned up in their thousands ticketless which is evident not just at hillsborough but every major final they have been in for decades, then the police wouldn't have been put under pressure to open the gates.

The negligence from the police perspective, was a consequence of incorrectly opening the gates and the subsequent cover up. Yes they need to be held accountable but Liverpool fans have form at cup finals, including stealing tickets and trying to gain entry into the CL final ticketless.

Yet the families don't round on their own. It's hard not to feel sympathy for them but let's take a balanced view of this.

[DB10GOONER]

Old school Gooners will remember travelling to Hillsborough, the bullying attitude of South Yorks police, who later battered the miners striking for their communities, squashing away fans inside dangerous Leppings Lane end, especially semi finals.

Was one semi against us when the mickeys had the Leppings, first game 1980, you can see the fans squashed together, same end a year later with the swamp dwellers vs Wolves.

This was happening for years before the disaster, yet we have Gooners on here following The Sun / Tory propaganda & blaming the fans FFS!

There's a reason for legal / goverment enquiries & criminal charges, don't listen to lying cúnts like Kelvin McKenzie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtoeKhWUEi8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ZeFtviJiM

And there are Gooners on here following the Liverpool victim propaganda and NOT blaming a proportion of their fans. You (like the Mousers and the media) don't seem to be able to seperate the two issues. Yes the police were culpable, yes the ground was dangerous, yes there should have been a proper investigation back then, but that does NOT change the fact that there were hundreds (probably thousands) of Liverpool fans that turned up late, without tickets, many drunk, and pushed their way in, contributing to the disaster. And yet it is like some kind of social blasphemy to even suggest they were partly to blame. Also so many people seem to like to defend the Liverpool fans as part of their "I hate the Tories and the police" agenda.

No one is saying that the fans who were killed are to blame. They were there (in most cases) on time with tickets (that's why they were in the ground down the front). But the fans that turned up late with no tickets and did what Liverpool fans have done for decades - and still fucking do to this day the hypocritical bastards - and jibbed in are definitely partly to blame for the deaths of 96 innocent football fans.

I think what gets up most people's arses with Liverpool is that they have hijacked the media and the tragedy as part of their inherint victim complex and yet they have all but air brushed the murder of 39 Juve fans out of the history of their club. What happened at Hillsborough was a tragedy, what happened at Heysel was murder.

[Allgunsblazin]

The real question is Why did the Commander find it necessary to give the order to open the gates based on the capacity of that enclosure in Leppings Lane...
The real issue is over 25 years of cover up and tampered evidence, this has added to the case, and I am afraid I detest unlawful means of criminalising a section of our nation based upon assumptions of well that's what they do, but they defitely attributed to it!
I tend to agree that the politics of the time added to this disgraceful disaster, a disaster that should have been handled better, and a lot of old school will remember those iron bars and cages that kept people penned in until a crush developed, no foresight whatsoever...
When we kiss our loved ones goodbye to go and see a game, we do not expect them to not return...

Heysel needs closure too and that happened in 1986, Juventus never forget that either, Liverpool!

[Herd]

Of course it wouldn't have happened at all if there hadn't been fences up ,strange no one ever mentions that !
The ticket-less latecomers (none of us know if they were with or without tickets ) are often blamed but if simple procedures ie have several buffer checks b4 u reach the gates , as in previous years had been followed there wouldn't have been a crush.
People often turn up late and run towards the ground ,it happens especially with the bad traffic poor bus service etc so again its hard to blame the mickeys there.
A lot of peoples opinions on Hillsborough are clouded by their blind hatred of scousers !
Im not a scouser fan or apologist I just see things for what I think they are !

[DB10GOONER]

Of course it wouldn't have happened at all if there hadn't been fences up ,strange no one ever mentions that !
The ticket-less latecomers (none of us know if they were with or without tickets ) are often blamed but if simple procedures ie have several buffer checks b4 u reach the gates , as in previous years had been followed there wouldn't have been a crush.
People often turn up late and run towards the ground ,it happens especially with the bad traffic poor bus service etc so again its hard to blame the mickeys there.
A lot of peoples opinions on Hillsborough are clouded by their blind hatred of scousers !
Im not a scouser fan or apologist I just see things for what I think they are !

And the counter argument is if those fans that turned up late without tickets had stayed away then it would not have happened at all either! This whole modern culture of "it has to be someone else's fault, I can't be expected to take responsibility for my own actions" pisses me off.

And whilst most right thinking people will accept absolutely that there were many contibuting factors including fencing, poor policing, poor organisation etc etc I think most right minded people would also think none of those things can excuse the group of Liverpool fans that turned up late without tickets.

Also, I don't think many people have a "blind hatred of scousers" tbh, but I do think many people find the hypocrisy of their fans a bit distasteful. Given the very nature of the Hillsborough tragedy I find it unforgiveable that fans of that club in particular still turn up without tickets, often pissed up, and still try and push their way into grounds in large numbers.

[xisstential]

The worst thing for those facing charges now, whether deserved or not, is that blood is going to be demanded. There will be howls of protest coming out of Liverpool if severe jail sentences are not handed down.

Are they really going to go to all this trouble,spend all this money to appease these families,then give the guilty a slap on the wrist??
Lengthy jail sentences are going to be DEMANDED!! And the trial and subsequent verdicts and sentences will be swamping us for months on end. And on and on and on it goes......

Meanwhile over in Brussels @Heysel stadium.........

[Herd]

Of course it wouldn't have happened at all if there hadn't been fences up ,strange no one ever mentions that !
The ticket-less latecomers (none of us know if they were with or without tickets ) are often blamed but if simple procedures ie have several buffer checks b4 u reach the gates , as in previous years had been followed there wouldn't have been a crush.
People often turn up late and run towards the ground ,it happens especially with the bad traffic poor bus service etc so again its hard to blame the mickeys there.
A lot of peoples opinions on Hillsborough are clouded by their blind hatred of scousers !
Im not a scouser fan or apologist I just see things for what I think they are !

And the counter argument is if those fans that turned up late without tickets had stayed away then it would not have happened at all either! This whole modern culture of "it has to be someone else's fault, I can't be expected to take responsibility for my own actions" pisses me off.

And whilst most right thinking people will accept absolutely that there were many contibuting factors including fencing, poor policing, poor organisation etc etc I think most right minded people would also think none of those things can excuse the group of Liverpool fans that turned up late without tickets.

Also, I don't think many people have a "blind hatred of scousers" tbh, but I do think many people find the hypocrisy of their fans a bit distasteful. Given the very nature of the Hillsborough tragedy I find it unforgiveable that fans of that club in particular still turn up without tickets, often pissed up, and still try and push their way into grounds in large numbers.

You simply dont know if the late arrivals had tickets or were pissed up DB ,do you ?