Israel/Gaza

[REB]

i have never stated that israel doesnt have the right to defend itself,the way they stood up to the arabs in 67 was a great acievement nor am i a supporter of hamas or any other terrorist group but i stand by my support for the palestinians and the facts are that israel since 1946 has took all the land that they lived in, i dont expect you or quartz to agree with me and people are entitled to an opinon,but the west bank and gaza are open prison for these people with blockades on land and sea and it gets harder to have sympathy for the invading force when they are bombing and killing innocent woman and children.

[QuartzGooner]

Reb

The map you posted is a propaganda map, with no context other than modern Palestinian propaganda.
It is not even historically correct either.

This is a map of the empire of King David, which encompassed all of what is today known as Israel, plus parts of Jordan and Syria and Lebanon.
You can see the Jewish Kingdoms of Judah and Israel.
The areas of Bashan and Gilead were also part of the Jewish ruled land, as were parts of Ammon and Moab, and King Solomon expanded things down to Eilat on the Red Sea and North East with about 40% of what is now known as Syria.



Ever since then we have had our land chipped away by successive invaders.
We have massively compromised on territory.
The previous authority of the land was the British Mandate of Palestine.
The country of Jordan was 76% of the British Mandate of Palestine, we let that go.
Syria includes 2% of the British Mandate of Palestine.
Israel is just 22% of it.

In a religious context, we are allowed to trade land for peace.
Hence giving the Sinai back to Egypt.
But we are not allowed to trade land for war...and Hamas rule in Gaza and Palestinian Authority autonomy in the West Bank has led to conflict.

The phrase "Open Prison" is a propaganda one.
I will not deny that there are travel restrictions on Gazans and people in the West Bank, but when did these occur from?
From the early 80's.
They are a response to increased violence, and Israel has little choice but to use them.

The Palestinians are not an entirely ancient people, stripped of their lands.
They are a new people, made up of massive immigration from Jordan and Egypt into the Ottoman ruled areas of what is now Israel, plus during the inter-war period of the British Mandate.

Of course, some Arabs have lived there for over 1500 years.
And they still do in Israel, comprising about 23% of the population.


Spudmasher

Most Muslims live normal lives.
The lunatic fringe have equated Islam with death and violence, and get a buzz from murder and rape.
It is a problem that cannot be swept under the carpet, and it needs regular Muslims to speak out and work against it as well as non-Muslims.

[SPUDMASHER]

Spudmasher

Most Muslims live normal lives.
The lunatic fringe have equated Islam with death and violence, and get a buzz from murder and rape.
It is a problem that cannot be swept under the carpet, and it needs regular Muslims to speak out and work against it as well as non-Muslims.

Absolutely agree but their silence is deafening. Until the mainstream Muslim stands up en mass and says "not in my name", exactly as the article says, then we will never see an end to this violence.

So why don't they? Nobody will speak out on behalf of 'normal' muslims.

[OneBardGooner]

"Nobody will speak out on behalf of 'normal' muslims"

You have a point there mate.

There was a Protest in the city centre recently - and there were these guys (dressed as) 'Clerics' - with Megaphones shouting in everyone's faces - One of them would shout something in their own language - and all the men would shout it back punching their fists in the air, the women (all of whom were dressed in Hijabs) stood silently by holding banners (in arabic)....later on I heard that the various groups of protesters all met to form a large group of around 1,000 -.
It was a sunny (very hot) saturday afternoon...and the route they chose went through/between all the street bars - so by about 3pm - quite a few of the street bars were packed - some of the clientele worse for wear, and then the protestors - decided to start shouting out their slogans etc - and of course it all kicked off.

Everyone has the right to protest - But surely if the intention is to protest peacefully - then choose the route and time with care... the protestors claimed (after the event) they were demonstrating (Peacefully) against the war in Gaza, fine no problem, but surely they 'knew' that by marching along their chosen route - with megaphones shouting and ranting - someone were bound to take exception.

[afcforever]

"Nobody will speak out on behalf of 'normal' muslims"

You have a point there mate.

There was a Protest in the city centre recently - and there were these guys (dressed as) 'Clerics' - with Megaphones shouting in everyone's faces - One of them would shout something in their own language - and all the men would shout it back punching their fists in the air, the women (all of whom were dressed in Hijabs) stood silently by holding banners (in arabic)....later on I heard that the various groups of protesters all met to form a large group of around 1,000 -.
It was a sunny (very hot) saturday afternoon...and the route they chose went through/between all the street bars - so by about 3pm - quite a few of the street bars were packed - some of the clientele worse for wear, and then the protestors - decided to start shouting out their slogans etc - and of course it all kicked off.

Everyone has the right to protest - But surely if the intention is to protest peacefully - then choose the route and time with care... the protestors claimed (after the event) they were demonstrating (Peacefully) against the war in Gaza, fine no problem, but surely they 'knew' that by marching along their chosen route - with megaphones shouting and ranting - someone were bound to take exception.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 4ZyXsSpXps

On the streets of London The old bill running away, if they were football supporters they'd be battoned straight away

[OneBardGooner]

Yer right mate they would.

[flash gunner]

Let's not forget the state of Israel was born out of terrorism with the Jewish Lehi terrorist group that used to attack and kill the British in Palestine.

The whole thing is a mess and until both sides agree to share the land equally there will never be peace

[northbank123]

Interesting read Spuddy. I'm not pretending that I have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith and community, or that I have a 'solution' to any of these terrible issues. And I certainly don't equate Islam with terrorism.

But it certainly appears to me that the mainstream Muslim community falls disgracefully short in their condemnation and ultimately prevention of these sorts of acts. Sure, if a terrorist plot is foiled then you might get someone from the Muslim Council on BBC denouncing it. But when people are committing atrocities home and abroad in the name of the religion, I think the Muslim community at large has a responsibility not only to visibly and repeatedly distance itself from these actions and deter others from joining, but also to actively root out this evil. Sadly the reality is that this doesn't happen enough and that these home-grown terrorists are radicalised in mosques and other mainstream Muslim environments.

Extremism is a warped and radical view on the religion but at the moment sadly it is a huge stain on the Muslim community in this country.

[afcforever]

Interesting read Spuddy. I'm not pretending that I have a deep understanding of the Muslim faith and community, or that I have a 'solution' to any of these terrible issues. And I certainly don't equate Islam with terrorism.

But it certainly appears to me that the mainstream Muslim community falls disgracefully short in their condemnation and ultimately prevention of these sorts of acts. Sure, if a terrorist plot is foiled then you might get someone from the Muslim Council on BBC denouncing it. But when people are committing atrocities home and abroad in the name of the religion, I think the Muslim community at large has a responsibility not only to visibly and repeatedly distance itself from these actions and deter others from joining, but also to actively root out this evil. Sadly the reality is that this doesn't happen enough and that these home-grown terrorists are radicalised in mosques and other mainstream Muslim environments.

Extremism is a warped and radical view on the religion but at the moment sadly it is a huge stain on the Muslim community in this country.

Not just this country, all around the world.

[Chippy]

As some wise man at the top of this thread said, "Religion is the root of all evil."

[afcforever]

As some wise man at the top of this thread said, "Religion is the root of all evil."

So very true, but there's one that sticks out a lot more than others

[QuartzGooner]

Let's not forget the state of Israel was born out of terrorism with the Jewish Lehi terrorist group that used to attack and kill the British in Palestine.

The whole thing is a mess and until both sides agree to share the land equally there will never be peace

The State of Israel was well on it's way before the modern armed struggle.

The Lehi were one of three main groups who fought in the 30's and 40's, they were the smallest numbering around 400 at their strongest point.

But it must be seen in context, the British shot Jews as we landed and came ashore from boats, the British gave arms to the Arabs.
Houses were raided, arms confiscated, Jews imprisoned in Eritrea and Cyprus.
When I have spoken to those who lived there are the time they said the British were heavy handed.
It was a struggle for survival.

The Hagannah/Palmach (the largest Jewish group, left wing), were much more conciliatory to the British.
The Irgun/Eitzl wavered between ambivalence to the British and attacking military bases to get arms.

[topgoon]

As some wise man at the top of this thread said, "Religion is the root of all evil."

This is where this f**king argument should end. From the bottom of my heart I say all religious people if you can't keep your worshipping cr*p to the confines of your own home,then stick you Bible,Koran,torah whatever the f*ck else you all read to lord it over everyone else up your fairytale believing a**es.

I eagerly await my fatwa,curse,whatever.

[OneBardGooner]

As some wise man at the top of this thread said, "Religion is the root of all evil."

This is where this f**king argument should end. From the bottom of my heart I say all religious people if you can't keep your worshipping cr*p to the confines of your own home,then stick you Bible,Koran,torah whatever the f*ck else you all read to lord it over everyone else up your fairytale believing a**es.

I eagerly await my fatwa,curse,whatever.

But...But...but shouldn't TopGoon be saying that in the third person!?

[topgoon]

God/Allah/Buddha/A crack pipe/Bottle of Voddy won't recognize me in the 3rd person because they all consider themselves to be above me.

Personally I only listen to the last one. The others don't do much for me.