It's all a load of Cannonballs in here! This is the virtual Arsenal pub where you can chat about anything except football. Be warned though, like any pub, the content may not always be suitable for everyone.
So the opinions of Noam Chomsky, one of the greatest intellects of the modern era, are to be written off because he has some fairly left wing views. The real laugh though is labelling him anti-semitic. I know the Israeli propaganda machine is awesome, but labelling a Jew as anti-semitic is bringing Orwell's doublespeak to a new zenith. Does he really hate his entire family because they are Jewish? Anti-semitism is the hatred of Jews, it does not conflate to criticism of a criminal Israeli government.
I'll come back to the ludicrous "history" stuff later.
So the opinions of Noam Chomsky, one of the greatest intellects of the modern era, are to be written off because he has some fairly left wing views. The real laugh though is labelling him anti-semitic. I know the Israeli propaganda machine is awesome, but labelling a Jew as anti-semitic is bringing Orwell's doublespeak to a new zenith. Does he really hate his entire family because they are Jewish? Anti-semitism is the hatred of Jews, it does not conflate to criticism of a criminal Israeli government.
I'll come back to the ludicrous "history" stuff later.
That's the problem though Chippy. Any criticism of Israels politics is immediately spun into being an anti-semitic criticism of the Jewish Religion. As you rightly say, that's the effectiveness of their propaganda machine. As soon as they face any criticism they immediately bring out the "persecuted race" and "holocaust" card. It's so politically unnacptable to question either of them that they win every time. It's like a political game of top trumps where Israel has the Bugati Veyron card in their deck!
I deplore the politics of Zimbabwe but that doesn't mean I am anti Black African does it!
For the record, I don't consider the Jewish religion to be a "race". A race is something you are from birth to death and cannot do anything to change it. You can stop being a jew/christian/muslim at any time you want.
Unfortunately Israel has the backing of several western governments for purely financial reasons and they will never outright condemn their actions.
*link removed*
American journalist gets beheaded by ISIS...who happens to speak with a brittish accent.
Last edited by SPUDMASHER on Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Sorry but we don't want links to anything like that shit on here. Consider yourself warned.
So the opinions of Noam Chomsky, one of the greatest intellects of the modern era, are to be written off because he has some fairly left wing views. The real laugh though is labelling him anti-semitic. I know the Israeli propaganda machine is awesome, but labelling a Jew as anti-semitic is bringing Orwell's doublespeak to a new zenith. Does he really hate his entire family because they are Jewish? Anti-semitism is the hatred of Jews, it does not conflate to criticism of a criminal Israeli government.
I'll come back to the ludicrous "history" stuff later.
No, his opinions are to be written off because, and I repeat;
Noam Chomsky is known and famous as an anti-Semite. He is a spoiled rich kid that likes to pontificate about politics in the fashion of a spoiled rich kid trying to get attention and/or piss daddy off. He calls himself an anarchist for fucks sake. In this day and age? Yeah, that's right, a rich white anarchist. He also calls himself a "libertarian socialist". Read this for a fucking retarded childlike idealistic load of old shit;
Chomsky's world view is that of a simplistic idealistic moron; The US government is all bad, the Jews are all bad, Israel is all bad. He's a moron.
Would also add; William Brustein defines political antisemitism as "hostility toward Jews based on the belief that Jews seek national and/or world power". There are many definitions of anti-semitism and I would define the idiotic Chomsky as anti-semitic based on that particular description. Not "hatred" in this case, but certainly "hostility". The point being his viewpoint is prejudiced in the extreme and thus you are not backing your argument with a reliable and impartial opinion.
Worst of all Chomsky is a denier of the Cambodian genocide and, to this day, refuses to admit he was wrong or had an agenda by co-authoring a book defending the Khmer Rouge and playing down the slaughter in Cambodia.
Chomsky is an anti-Semite, just because he is Jewish by birth does not preclude him from abandoning his faith and turning on his own people.
Chippy you might see him as a great intellect, I do not.
And Chippy, you need context in such a discussion.
Ha'Aretz newspaper is the mouthpiece of the left wing in Israel.
It's historical cultural antecedents are the Labour Zionists who late 19th century abandoned most of their religion and identity in favour of a "New Jew", a international Socialist outlook connected to economic collective villages based on light industry, crafts and farming, such as a Kibbutz or Moshav.
As a newspaper it does not speak for me.
Neither does Desmond Tutu, who clearly projects his South African experience by drawing crude incorrect "similarities" between that and what he sees in Israel.
He is an ardent anti-Israeli, a man who I think stirs hatred and one I have little time for.
As for proving G-D's existence, science has yet to do so, but I believe scientific experience and life experience prove the existence, am aware others do not share this view.
As for historical claim to land, then someone better have some hitherto extraordinary evidence to counter my view!
Whilst acknowledging the differences between Judaism and Christianity, I do know of a story in the New Testament where Jesus throws the money changers out of the Temple.
Is this an imaginary Temple?
No.
I have been to it's remains, seen the exact spot where that incident happened, seen the weights and measures the money changers sued.
The remains of the Temple are the Western Wall and associated tunnels.
But the Romans murdering 1.5 Million Jews is such a deep stain on the West, a Roman "Civilisation" that is an acknowledged contributor to modern Western life, that it is no wonder it is barely talked about in Western academic circles.
Northbank123
There is not a disregard for civilian life by Israel.
I repeat, every possible measure of civilians safety has been taken, even this week Gazan civilians were airlifted to Israel then onto Turkey, every cynical human shield and propaganda measure to promote civilian death has been taken by Hamas.
But there comes a point where diplomacy fails and armed conflict occurs, core truth being the protection of one's own population against armed attacks.
Israel could easily have caused many times more civilian deaths, and undoubtedly have taken many measures to restrict the number of innocent casualties. But "every measure"? Bollocks. I don't believe that this is the minimum number of casualties Israel could have brought about in order to protect their citizens. Disregard is incorrect, agreed, but they have certainly shown a disdain for civilian life. Israel obviously has a duty to protect its own citizens but in light of the civilian casualties, it's becoming increasingly harder to justify. 3 Israelis from weeks ago against an ever-rising number of Palestinian (vast majority of the 2,000 killed thus far).
As I suggested earlier your previous brief criticism of the way Israel has acted seems to have been a token gesture not in keeping with any of your other views. I understand where your natural loyalty lies but you are being every bit as stubborn and obdurate as those you are arguing with.
Sorry Northbank123, I do not want to put words in your mouth or project views so please correct me if you feel I incorrectly admonish you, but,
Do not judge me by your point of view.
Rather than bury civilian deaths with a quick 30 second non-visual news item mid-bulletin, such as when an Allied drone strike in Pakistan blows up a wedding, Israel is more upfront.
What more could we do to avoid Gazan civilian deaths, give that we have to fight and how Hamas use human shields?
We could have literally obliterated vast chunks of Gaza, and then used bunker buster bombs to blow up the majority of but not the totality of the Hamas leadership who are in a bunker under the Shifa hospital.
Instead we sent in ground troops at painstaking cost to ourselves, who moved building by building through trips wires, booby traps, sniper fire, suicide bomber attacks and mortar fire.
Also it is estimated that 47% of Gazan deaths are Hamas and Islamic Jihad members.
As for me being stubborn what on earth do you want from me or from Israel?
That I bow to my enemy and ask him to not attack!
That those nice friendly men of Hamas come to my midsummer tea party?
That I let the outright lies, hypocrisy and anti-Semitic hatred of a media storm go unchallenged?
Like, for particular example, this narcissist Russell Brand and his Israeli Boycott campaign - where is he whilst 250,000 Ukrainians have fled and are shelled by both sides in their civil war?
Or the Central African Republic machete massacres of two months ago?
Or the Boko Haram on going campaign of murder and kidnap?
Because the intensity and style of the opposition to Israel can have no other explanation than that of a deep seated fear of Jews.
Have any of the seemingly Self Righteous Gaza "Media Champions" made an effort to criticise Hamas?
Hardly!
Self defence means intelligence services defence, but it also means military defence and all it's horrific consequences.
Stating the obvious, It is a conflict of which I am on one side of, I am not someone who is not connected to the conflict but talks of it from a neutral perspective.
I am not in Gaza, but I am an Israeli, I have many friends and family under attack from Hamas, I have a friend fighting in Gaza and one relative on reserve duty waiting for orders.
This war is personal and pertinent.
QuartzGooner wrote:
I am not in Gaza, but I am an Israeli, I have many friends and family under attack from Hamas, I have a friend fighting in Gaza and one relative on reserve duty waiting for orders.
This war is personal and pertinent.
I hope your friends and family are ok, pure evil whats going on around the world at the moment.
We have tried talking since the late 19th century.
But when a chunk of the other side is committed to destroying all of you, there can not be peace, only "Hudna" pauses while military analysis, re-arming and re-training happens.
I am not an expert on middle Eastern affairs and do not presume to have half the knowledge of others on this forum. I think that things out there are a mess out there at the moment and I really cannot see how they will get any better soon. Any loss of life is tragic but when you hear figures of over 2000 deaths I don't think the brain can really process it. My hope is that some sort of dialogue will be able to bring peace - like The Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland but I really cannot see that happening in the Middle East.
My heart goes out to the innocent Palestinians who have lost their lives in the bombings. Likewise with the Israeli families suffering loss. The images coming out on the TV are horrible and it is very easy to criticise the Israelis. But I have thought about what would happen if (in a make believe world) we lived in a similar geographical situation where we were in dispute with a neighbouring people. How would we all react if rockets were being fired on English towns and English people? Would we not want to protect our people? God's knows we have fired our own bombs on plenty of foreign people in recent years without the justification defending our own people or towns.
Maybe it is just the hidden tree hugger in me but I would just like to fu*king grab the leaders from both sides and shake some fucking sense into them. Hopefully sense will prevail before too many people lose their lives.
Quartz I wish any friends or relatives are safe, and I have admitted numerous times that I can't imagine what it would be like were it this country under attack save to say that my views would be somewhat more hard-line.
I also won't pretend that I have an in-depth knowledge (certainly not based on what the British press have to say) or that I have a simple solution to articulate, I wish somebody did. I just don't believe that the full extent of Israel's actions are justified and proportionate.
cardinal2011 wrote:I am not an expert on middle Eastern affairs and do not presume to have half the knowledge of others on this forum. I think that things out there are a mess out there at the moment and I really cannot see how they will get any better soon. Any loss of life is tragic but when you hear figures of over 2000 deaths I don't think the brain can really process it. My hope is that some sort of dialogue will be able to bring peace - like The Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland but I really cannot see that happening in the Middle East.
My heart goes out to the innocent Palestinians who have lost their lives in the bombings. Likewise with the Israeli families suffering loss. The images coming out on the TV are horrible and it is very easy to criticise the Israelis. But I have thought about what would happen if (in a make believe world) we lived in a similar geographical situation where we were in dispute with a neighbouring people. How would we all react if rockets were being fired on English towns and English people? Would we not want to protect our people? God's knows we have fired our own bombs on plenty of foreign people in recent years without the justification defending our own people or towns.
Maybe it is just the hidden tree hugger in me but I would just like to fu*king grab the leaders from both sides and shake some fucking sense into them. Hopefully sense will prevail before too many people lose their lives.
The best post on this sorry thread tbh. Well played, mate.
Just to prove that it is not Judaism I have a problem with but all religion where you can say you are right because of a book. This is a fantastic article about "Islamophobia."
Would we not want to protect our people? God's knows we have fired our own bombs on plenty of foreign people in recent years without the justification defending our own people or towns. 
