Charlie Hebdo Champion of free speech or anti-muslim?

[REB]

if you live in a country then abide by the laws of that country, if you dont then fuck off to a country that has the laws that you want.

[g88ner]

If it takes a legal ban, then ban the images of Muhammad.

So they win. Those minoritty of fanatics have their way.

IMO if something offends you, don't read it. Don't want to see a picture of Muhammed? Don't look at one.

It's not about winning or losing - it's about being smarter. If you know images of Muhammed offend the vast majority of muslims, then does it help or damage our cause for peace if we print these images? - even if we don't like it, we should at least try and respect the wishes of peaceful muslims or we risk alienating them.

And it's not only about respect. It's also about responsibility. Every time people disrespect muslims by printing cartoons of Muhammed or burning the Quran, vulnerable westerners in volatile Muslim regions of the world feel the wrath of the locals. The amount of times I've read about riots leading to attacks, murders and destruction of property of innocent westerners as a direct result of people's obsession with disrespecting Islam under the guise of "freedom of speech" is crazy.

There are ways to stand up to these extremist thugs without resorting to offending peaceful muslims. We should be building bridges, not pushing people away.

[QuartzGooner]

G88ner wrote what I was going to write.

There is a phrase "Do not wag the tail of a barking dog".

In addition, the Jihadis who carried out the attacks were of such a mind and well armed that they would have simply chosen another target had the magazine not existed...a school, or a politician, or such as happened in India...just walked the streets shooting at whomever they saw.
They hate because it is their essence, they hate no matter what you or I do because they hate even other Muslims who are not part of their particular type of Islam.
The battle with them is one for the security services.

[Rugby Gooner]

From what I have read and seen, my problem with islam is this- They do not want to peacefully co-exist with any other faith, or political regime. To them it is simple, unbelievers will convert or be killed.
Therefore, we should not back down to them in any way. We should resist their attempts,(in some areas of England successful), to practise sharia law in our country, we should stop their vigilantes patrolling areas of our capital city "enforcing" their standards of dress, drinking in public etc, and we should defend and support our free press to burst the bubbles of any institution/person that presumes a right to govern or exert control over us. As Reb said, if they can't or won't accept our laws and our way of life they should relocate to somewhere where they can be happier, and leave us to live the way we wish to.

[officepest]

I don't care if a cartoonist draws a picture of Invisible Friend A's prophet with his cock in a dog's arse; one may take offence at it, but that does not in any way justify getting so incensed that you murder 12 people who happen to not share your belief in said invisible friend.

We live in the 21st century, in secular Western Europe; grow up.


I am not a fan of organised religion; but I also have no burning desire to hose rounds into a bishop because I am offended by his cross-dressing.

[QuartzGooner]

Rugby

Of course there are thousands of fanatical Muslims who want an Islamic State under their version of Islam or bust.
But do all Muslims want to convert or wipe out other faiths?

Because we are into dangerous territory here.

Are there any Muslims still on this Forum? (Red Gunner is but he is not around much, and we had an Arab from Israel for a bit but he moved to Sweden I think, Hashkads is too.)

Can you accept that there are other paths to spirituality?

No posts from anyone yet who has declared themselves a Muslim.

[GranadaJoe]

A big problem is that in the UK there is a lot of ignorance among the public and the press. Muslims are talked about as if they were one huge homogenous movement.

There is huge diversity in creed and culture. Sunni, Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyyr, Kharijite etc and there are many divisions within these broad movements.

My personal opinion is that the Saudi financed Salafist/Wahhabi fundamentalist theology is the big problem. They consider all non-Sunnis as heretics. They are as happy to execute Shias and Sufis as they are to attack the West. Fanatics with bottomless pits of money are very dangerous.
I've never understood why the Saudis have been allowed to get away with promoting this ideology.

The biggest killers of Muslims are other Muslims.

I don't think we'd advocate targetting all Christians if one wacko denomination committed an atrocity.

[olgitgooner]

In my opinion faith takes a very poor second place to humanity.

It doesn't matter what god you believe in. If any. What matters is how you treat other humans. And animals.

If your faith encourages you to do harm to others.....then your faith is wrong.

[skizz_b]

In two minds about this one.

A cartoon is NOT an excuse for violence of this nature. It is also a choice to be offended by it - as another example God and Jesus are often mocked on cartoons like Family Guy.

Similarly free speech carries a burden of responsibility, saying "get over it" isn't an excuse for making derogatory images. I noted that there were a number of cartoons offensive to Muslims in the new issue, including a woman in a burkha stripping naked. This doesn't help the situation and makes Charlie Hebdo look like they are purposely trying to incite Muslims - very much a "you attacked us, but we're still doing this" type act.

I'm not sure what the right answer is in all honesty, you can't have free speech without people taking offence. One hand washes the other. I must say though the new issue made me very uncomfortable.

[augie]

If it takes a legal ban, then ban the images of Muhammad.

So they win. Those minoritty of fanatics have their way.

IMO if something offends you, don't read it. Don't want to see a picture of Muhammed? Don't look at one.

It's not about winning or losing - it's about being smarter. If you know images of Muhammed offend the vast majority of muslims, then does it help or damage our cause for peace if we print these images? - even if we don't like it, we should at least try and respect the wishes of peaceful muslims or we risk alienating them.

And it's not only about respect. It's also about responsibility. Every time people disrespect muslims by printing cartoons of Muhammed or burning the Quran, vulnerable westerners in volatile Muslim regions of the world feel the wrath of the locals. The amount of times I've read about riots leading to attacks, murders and destruction of property of innocent westerners as a direct result of people's obsession with disrespecting Islam under the guise of "freedom of speech" is crazy.

There are ways to stand up to these extremist thugs without resorting to offending peaceful muslims. We should be building bridges, not pushing people away.

Problem with that is that it suggests that we (the western world population) must cower down and respect Islamic ways in their states, but they don't need to do the same when they move into the western world - we must respect that there are rules against certain behaviour in Islamic states that must be honoured, but when they live in western countries we are expected to give up a fundamental right to free speech just to appease the muslim community I just don't understand why muslims would want to move into countries where behaviour offends them so much - I certainly couldn't live under their laws so I wouldn't for 1 second think of living there

Quartz suggests that had Charlie hebdo not existed these extremists would have simply moved onto another target and killed other westerners......so we are supposed to respect the beliefs of a community that respects nobody ? If they were just targeting military places then that I could understand (not agree with in the slightest though), but these fcukers are killing innocent people including kids and whether we (as a western community) respect their rules regarding muhammed , it wont save our lives because these fcukers are indiscriminate when it comes to murdering westerners


Finally g88ner, how you would judge what constitutes a peaceful muslim ? Surely by its very definition it suggests a muslim that is pro-peace and anti violence, so I would like to know how many of these muslims would be willing to work with western law enforcement to apprehend these extremists. There is a huge difference between someone not being active in the war and somebody that is anti the war. There is a huge difference between somebody not condoning these attacks and somebody that is totally opposed to these attacks.

[arseofacrow]

It's not about winning or losing - it's about being smarter. If you know images of Muhammed offend the vast majority of muslims, then does it help or damage our cause for peace if we print these images? - even if we don't like it, we should at least try and respect the wishes of peaceful muslims or we risk alienating them.

Is it Charlie Hebdo's cause for peace, g88ner?

[Yankee_Gooner_Dandee]

If Christians reacted in any way similar to Muslims then the creators of South Park and Family Guy would be long dead.

Glad they don;t because South Park is brilliant.

[Red Snapper]

Augie, I don't want to copy and paste your last post as it would make the page even longer, just to say that it is the most intelligent, well thought out and well expressed thing I have read about this whole sorry episode anywhere.

[QuartzGooner]

Augie

I don't respect their beliefs though, not the extremists ones.

And the UK is fighting ISIS in Iraq.

Why do so many Muslims want to live here?
I guess because it is wealthier than their countries, it is much more a meritocracy than their nepotistic and more corrupt countries, which are also often in civil wars.

As for free speech, I do not regard it as an inalienable right.
My religion puts a very heavy emphasis on responsible speech rather than free speech.

[augie]

Augie

I don't respect their beliefs though, not the extremists ones.

And the UK is fighting ISIS in Iraq.

Why do so many Muslims want to live here?
I guess because it is wealthier than their countries, it is much more a meritocracy than their nepotistic and more corrupt countries, which are also often in civil wars.

As for free speech, I do not regard it as an inalienable right.
My religion puts a very heavy emphasis on responsible speech rather than free speech.

So you are suggesting that muslims want to live in western society and then change the workings of the society that has made those countries so appealing to the muslims in the first place ? Something not quite adding up there don't you think ?

Quartz your religion may well view responsible speech rather than free speech as everyone's right, but the law of the land that counts - clearly your faith means a lot to you and I totally respect that, but it seems to me that everyone that is committed to their religion feels that the laws of their church trump the legal laws of the land