Labour Party Leadership Contest

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nut flush gooner
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Re: Labour Party Leadership Contest

Post by nut flush gooner »

northbank123 wrote:
Theoperator wrote:
northbank123 wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why students shouldn't have to pay tuition fees? It's a fucking joke.
Totally against them mate- its an investment by the state in the student who will in all likelihood earn more and then pay more taxes back to the state. By your logic why the f.ck dont children at school have to get a loan and pay it back :? To land students with such a debt And very unfairly not penalise 24 year olds and over with the same degree and loan is a total disgrace.

As it is a lot of people with degrees are SERIOUSLY considering emigrating, and with a £36,000 loan that you avoid paying if you do then its a bit of a no brainer.

About the worst thing ever done by Labour and aggravated more by the coalition.
Where do you draw the line going the other way? Should the state pay for Masters degrees? PHDs? What about people who want to go back to university at 40 to change career? And if we're sponsoring all of this shouldn't the state also sponsor apprentices to earn a proper wage in their first year of vocational learning rather than less than £3/hour?

An education til 16 is a necessity, and further education until 18 greatly benefits the vast vast majority of kids - and they are still kids at 16. A university education is of vastly reduced benefit to a much smaller group of people. The idea that we should be aiming for 50% of students to go to university is a complete and utter fucking joke as a massively lower proportion of jobs in the workplace actually need degrees.

I was in the position of applying to university 7 or 8 years. I went to a good school and people just ended up getting shepherded into going to university because it was assumed to be the next step. Shall I tell you what my mates who all went to ex-polytechnics to doss around doing sports-based degrees are doing now? Working in supermarkets, working at car dealerships, working in call centres. Their shit degree isn't worth the paper it's written on. Shall I tell you what my mates who left school to do apprenticeships to be electricians, plumbers etc are doing? Skilled work for a bloody good wage.

And let's not forget that the student loan repayment obligations are very generous. Earn £21,000 or less? Don't pay a penny back. Earn £30,000? Pay a modest £67/month. Interest of RPI? Hardly going to force you out of your home is it. People's perceptions of student debt is massively misplaced. I don't know where your sweeping generalisation about people wanting to emigrate because of student loans comes from but having spent 4 years studying at university and working exclusively with people with a university education I can honestly say I've never heard anybody say anything like that. Maybe that was because I went to university to do a worthwhile degree though.

University isn't a 'rite of passage' that we should be handing kids nearly £40,000 to go through. We should be aiming to drastically reduce the numbers of people needlessly taking on student debt to go to university to do pointless degrees rather than encouraging more. We should be stopping brainless careers advisers from telling students that they should be going to university when they just don't need to. We should be stopping the plethora of fucking useless institutions out there from fleecing the state (via student loans) to offer fucking useless courses. We shouldn't be feeding the beast just so that students can afford to go out two or three times a week and pop to the odd lecture on a course that does nothing for their career.
Big +1. Our tuition fees where very generous for many years and Higher education was heavily subsidised by the state. What do students generally do with their loans aside from tuition and accommodation expenses, they piss it up a wall.

I know one particular student who learned how to play on line poker, and instead of completing his degree has been around the world playing poker to a very high level. Now tell me that this or any other individual is deserving of reduced tuition fees. University used to be a privilege not a right, and that's the way it should be.

Also try looking at the tuition fees to go to an American college, they make ours look like peanuts in comparison.

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DB10GOONER
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Re: Labour Party Leadership Contest

Post by DB10GOONER »

Hilarious that so many of you differentiate between politicians of one party or the other. They are ALL fucking lying nest feathering crooked bastards. Every single one of them. I hope they all fucking burn in hell. :x

I think my work here is done. Thank you. 8)

nut flush gooner
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:23 am

Re: Labour Party Leadership Contest

Post by nut flush gooner »

DB10GOONER wrote:Hilarious that so many of you differentiate between politicians of one party or the other. They are ALL fucking lying nest feathering crooked bastards. Every single one of them. I hope they all fucking burn in hell. :x

I think my work here is done. Thank you. 8)
Yeah the irish where fed a lie that property prices only go one way !

;)

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DB10GOONER
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Re: Labour Party Leadership Contest

Post by DB10GOONER »

nut flush gooner wrote:
DB10GOONER wrote:Hilarious that so many of you differentiate between politicians of one party or the other. They are ALL fucking lying nest feathering crooked bastards. Every single one of them. I hope they all fucking burn in hell. :x

I think my work here is done. Thank you. 8)
Yeah the irish where fed a lie that property prices only go one way !

;)
:lol:

One of many, many lies, my friend. :D :wink:

Theoperator
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Re: Labour Party Leadership Contest

Post by Theoperator »

northbank123 wrote:
Theoperator wrote:
northbank123 wrote:
Can somebody explain to me why students shouldn't have to pay tuition fees? It's a fucking joke.
Totally against them mate- its an investment by the state in the student who will in all likelihood earn more and then pay more taxes back to the state. By your logic why the f.ck dont children at school have to get a loan and pay it back :? To land students with such a debt And very unfairly not penalise 24 year olds and over with the same degree and loan is a total disgrace.

As it is a lot of people with degrees are SERIOUSLY considering emigrating, and with a £36,000 loan that you avoid paying if you do then its a bit of a no brainer.

About the worst thing ever done by Labour and aggravated more by the coalition.
Where do you draw the line going the other way? Should the state pay for Masters degrees? PHDs? What about people who want to go back to university at 40 to change career? And if we're sponsoring all of this shouldn't the state also sponsor apprentices to earn a proper wage in their first year of vocational learning rather than less than £3/hour?

An education til 16 is a necessity, and further education until 18 greatly benefits the vast vast majority of kids - and they are still kids at 16. A university education is of vastly reduced benefit to a much smaller group of people. The idea that we should be aiming for 50% of students to go to university is a complete and utter fucking joke as a massively lower proportion of jobs in the workplace actually need degrees.

I was in the position of applying to university 7 or 8 years. I went to a good school and people just ended up getting shepherded into going to university because it was assumed to be the next step. Shall I tell you what my mates who all went to ex-polytechnics to doss around doing sports-based degrees are doing now? Working in supermarkets, working at car dealerships, working in call centres. Their shit degree isn't worth the paper it's written on. Shall I tell you what my mates who left school to do apprenticeships to be electricians, plumbers etc are doing? Skilled work for a bloody good wage.

And let's not forget that the student loan repayment obligations are very generous. Earn £21,000 or less? Don't pay a penny back. Earn £30,000? Pay a modest £67/month. Interest of RPI? Hardly going to force you out of your home is it. People's perceptions of student debt is massively misplaced. I don't know where your sweeping generalisation about people wanting to emigrate because of student loans comes from but having spent 4 years studying at university and working exclusively with people with a university education I can honestly say I've never heard anybody say anything like that. Maybe that was because I went to university to do a worthwhile degree though.

University isn't a 'rite of passage' that we should be handing kids nearly £40,000 to go through. We should be aiming to drastically reduce the numbers of people needlessly taking on student debt to go to university to do pointless degrees rather than encouraging more. We should be stopping brainless careers advisers from telling students that they should be going to university when they just don't need to. We should be stopping the plethora of fucking useless institutions out there from fleecing the state (via student loans) to offer fucking useless courses. We shouldn't be feeding the beast just so that students can afford to go out two or three times a week and pop to the odd lecture on a course that does nothing for their career.
NB123, fully agree with what you are saying about the generality of "degrees" not worth the paper they are printed on, as well as the madness of the 50% of school leavers getting degrees , but do take big issue with you over the repayments- its just under £100 a month over £30,000, as usual its a flat rate, so if you are on £2000000 its the same amount as someone on 30,003 . That really isnt a huge wage for many- - quite a difference from the £67 you mention (http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/p ... ema=PORTAL), and think you maybe confusing the old loans to the £9000 a year now. I have heard emigration mentioned quite a few times from NHS workers and teachers, remember ALL nurses have to have a degree, same with teachers- agree its a farce, but thats the "law". Add the £100 a week to the cost of a mortgage in most of the South and frankly you aint going to get many young nurses and teachers stay in their jobs for long, especially when the packages offered by Canada N-Z and Australia are more competitive when you add in work intensity and have no loan repayment attached. The loans only shot up 3 years ago, so you may well not be hearing the emigration talk as you arent encountering the £30-40,000 debters...... yet.

To say a University education is " is of vastly reduced benefit to a much smaller group of people" is too sweeping a comment- for many, Lawyers , architects Medics Teachers, Vets its impossible without the course, its an investment that the nation needs to give- without which we aint going to have an NHS or school system worthy of its name. Further why string an English qualified lawyer with £40,000 of debt when their mate from Gretna green gets it all scot ( :oops: ) free. Its a total joke, well more of a joke when you know of people buying a house just over the Welsh border so their kids get a significant subsidy. Why does my one son with THE SAME degree but 2 years earlier (Accident of birth :roll: ) get to repay almost nothing compared to his younger brother.

You are confusing the foolishness of Uni for 50% against the need for University education for many jobs.

Re the Apprentice scheme, I maybe wrong but arent firms training subsidised, so though the pay at first is rubbish the onus is on to keep an apprentice in the job once the scheme has finished. Thus (If I am right re training subsidy) the state does seem to subsidise apprenticeships, quite a contrast to University graduates.

Why is an education to 16 classed by you as a necessity, surely for a Nurse an education to graduation at 22 or whatever is also a necessity, yet suddenly they are expected to cough up the £40000 - its totally illogical.

I am not sure that a Phd or masters contributes an awful lot more to the font of human wisdom usually, and isnt a necessity in the same way that the vocational degrees are, and the change and retrain at 40 is I agree not an easy one- there are though charities set up specifically for late entry graduates ( :oops: ).

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northbank123
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Re: Labour Party Leadership Contest

Post by northbank123 »

Those are repayment rates for loans before 2012. For any loans since then, the repayment rates are 'Plan 2'. http://www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/p ... ema=PORTAL - there also doesn't seem to be a cap on repayments.

The point is that the state DOES invest in university education. Significantly. What sort of loan terms do you think an 18-year old asking to borrow £40k over 3 years would get from a high street lender or credit union? None at all most likely. Certainly nowhere near what they get from the government. Paying nothing beneath if you earn under £21k. You still pay less than 5% of your income if you earn £45k a year. It's different to almost any other form of debt because it's almost impossible to fall in trouble because of the loan repayments - if you do then the student loan is going to be a tiny fraction of your troubles. It doesn't cripple or burden people at all financially in the way that people like to make out. And this isn't me lecturing from my ivory tower - I have £20k+ of student debt and my girlfriend has about £30k.

It's misleading rhetoric to say that people have to "cough up" the money as though they have to scrabble that together before they'd allowed to drive through the gates. The point of the university funding system is to make a higher education open to all without having to worry about funding your way through. I can't say I met any kids at university who were worried sick because they would have to start paying back a modest amount a few years down the line. Add to this that universities offer massive amounts of funding to students from less privileged backgrounds.

Education until 16 is a necessity because before then kids are not at all likely to have developed the necessary skills to let them go forward in life. This applies to everybody, hence why education until 16 is compulsory. A university education benefits a minority, although some professions require a degree that's a career choice not a life necessity. The student loan system gives kids from any background

As for why it is subsidised more in Scotland and to a lesser extent Wales, that's a different debate. Just like how prescriptions are subsidised/paid for there. That's a devolution and equality argument.

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