It's all a load of Cannonballs in here! This is the virtual Arsenal pub where you can chat about anything except football. Be warned though, like any pub, the content may not always be suitable for everyone.
and then of course there is Belgium , not the sanitised part of Brussels but where the people live .
Mainstream media do not report this but a scan at Euronews or even RT show bits of it . All media has an agenda , the members of the political elite will only tell you what you want to hear. The people however when you talk to them , don't always say the same things.
What has any of that got to do with my point about Powell being a racist? Because he was right on one or two very obvious points about uncontrolled immigration causing problems, that excuses his racism?
Fucks sake Hitler was right about one or two points regarding the unfair treatment Germany got at Versailles, so I guess he wasn't a mass murdering bastard huh? And before you twist your knickers, I am being facetious there.
There are many decent honest and intelligent people that have spoken in defence of Brexit, but quoting scum like Powell undermines your entire argument in my eyes.
A11M11 wrote:The workings of the Palace of Westminster and our lawmaking is an interesting subject perhaps you could post a dissertation.
Of course they have precious little to do with your assertion that that the people did or didn't vote for anything other than quit or not.
BTW Whats your take on the Kalergi plan and the premise behind it. ?
Why is it my job to explain constitutional process? Basically what you are saying is that you voted for something you don't understand at all levels, from the issues surrounding leaving the EU to the process of enacting article 50. Then I am pretty sure people like you have a pop at Gina Miller, when all she was doing was forcing the government to do what they do with every other matter ie have a parliamentary debate and pass bills/laws off the back of the debates. That is the cornerstone of our democracy. Without that process you have a dictatorship!
Just as well you aren't in charge of this country ehhh .
That Gina Miller court case worked out well for you remainers though
The court case had nothing to do with remaining in the EU. Gina Miller specified this clearly when she first took the government to court. You can joke about it but at the time I am sure you probably thought she was looking to overturn the original decision of the people. Ignorance is bliss.
and then of course there is Belgium , not the sanitised part of Brussels but where the people live .
Mainstream media do not report this but a scan at Euronews or even RT show bits of it . All media has an agenda , the members of the political elite will only tell you what you want to hear. The people however when you talk to them , don't always say the same things.
What has any of that got to do with my point about Powell being a racist? Because he was right on one or two very obvious points about uncontrolled immigration causing problems, that excuses his racism?
Fucks sake Hitler was right about one or two points regarding the unfair treatment Germany got at Versailles, so I guess he wasn't a mass murdering bastard huh? And before you twist your knickers, I am being facetious there.
There are many decent honest and intelligent people that have spoken in defence of Brexit, but quoting scum like Powell undermines your entire argument in my eyes.
Wow Enoch Powell seems to be reverred by someone who claims to have socialist values. He makes Norman Tebbit look like a pacifist. This thread is truly comical at times.
I wonder if you people have actually read the speech that he was villified for . I would think you should as many of you would not have been old enough to have heard it first hand. As i said earlier he was diametrically opposite to Heath who was in the same circles as many newspaper owners who in those days had a lot more power in influencing public thoughts and they bought the whole gammut of their power to discredit him. Yes he was a divisive figure and he said a number of things which today in our overly PC world would be unacceptable but you have to put things in the context of things the way they were at the time.
"" It is very good that there are yellow French, black French, brown French. They show that France is open to all races and has a universal vocation. But [it is good] on condition that they remain a small minority. Otherwise, France would no longer be France. We are, after all, primarily a European people of the white race, Greek and Latin culture, and the Christian religion.
Don't tell me stories! Muslims, have you gone to see them? Have you watched them with their turbans and jellabiyas? You can see that they are not French! Those who advocate integration have the brain of a hummingbird. Try to mix oil and vinegar. Shake the bottle. After a second, they will separate again.
Arabs are Arabs, the French are French. Do you think the French body politic can absorb ten million Muslims, who tomorrow will be twenty million, after tomorrow forty? If we integrated, if all the Arabs and Berbers of Algeria were considered French, would you prevent them to settle in France, where the standard of living is so much higher? My village would no longer be called Colombey-The-Two-Churches but Colombey-The-Two-Mosques.""
That was a leader of a similar age , Charles de Gaulle a speech he won the man of the year award by Time magazine.
A total transformation to which there is no parallel in a thousand years of English history. In fifteen or twenty years, on present trends, there will be in this country 3 ½ million Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants. ... Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependents, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.
If all immigration ended tomorrow, the rate of growth of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population would be substantially reduced, but the prospective size of this element in the population would still leave the basic character of the national danger unaffected. This can only be tackled while a considerable proportion of the total still comprises persons who entered this country during the last ten years or so. Hence the urgency of implementing now the second element of the Conservative Party's policy: the encouragement of re-emigration.
All who are in this country as citizens should be equal before the law and that there shall be no discrimination or difference made between them by public authority. ... This does not mean that the immigrant and his descendants should be elevated into a privileged or special class or that the citizen should be denied his right to discriminate in the management of his own affairs between one fellow citizen and another.
There could be no grosser misconception of the realities than is entertained by those who vociferously demand legislation as they call it "against discrimination", whether they be leader-writers of the same kidney and sometimes on the same newspapers which year after year in the 1930s tried to blind this country to the rising peril which confronted it, or archbishops who live in palaces, faring delicately with the bedclothes pulled right over their heads.
To be integrated into a population means to become for all practical purposes indistinguishable from its other members. Now, at all times, where there are marked physical differences, especially of colour, integration is difficult though, over a period, not impossible.
As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."
De Gualle's speech was more flowery could say more eloquent but essentially the message was the same. It was the way things were in those days . You have to judge the world the way it was , you can't put today's morals on yesterday's happenings.
I was bought up on a North London market , as a child in the 50's & 60's you heard many things following the war, People were jittery , suspicious ,and very protectionist. All Powell did was voice in a speech what was being said on the streets.
A11M11 wrote:Believing what Rob,? It's perspective, if your concerns are purely financial then you might be right and also you could be wrong. If however your concerns like mine are about society and the way we live and are governed then I would advise you to read up on some of the things that our media doesn't tell us and hasn't in fact since about 1922.
Don't know how old you are Rob , but I remember this speech from 1975 . Kind of prophetic in many ways. albeit the figures have changed . In fact it's nigh on as prophetic as Enoch Powell' heavily misquoted speech relating to a quote regarding the River Tiber.
society as we know it is likely to fall apart in the UK following Brexit.
already public services are facing cuts the like of which have never been seen before.
as the country becomes even poorer due to Brexit then these problems will just increase.
Scotland wants to and probably will leave the union and so Brexit will have destroyed the UK.
the NHS will not survive without migrant workers from the EU (workers that contribute to the economy and do not take out of it)
meanwhile the increased strain on the NHS due to our ageing population (not as the right wing press would have you believe because of immigration) will get worse as thousands of elderly ex pats arrive back in the UK when they realise that they are no longer entitled to healthcare in the EU.
many major companies will leave the UK - already the banks are preparing to leave, and car manufacturers are providing no guarantees that they will stay
all the time the pound continues to fall, meaning the cost of imports continues to rise, and so the cost of living in the UK will become ever more expensive. if you are lucky enough to have a job, then wages will become worth less and less.
but never mind after all this was the will of the people. Brexit means Brexit
Jesus Christ this is just as ludicrous as the sort of "Brexit is the magic cure to everything" thinking at the other end of the spectrum.
A11M11 wrote:Believing what Rob,? It's perspective, if your concerns are purely financial then you might be right and also you could be wrong. If however your concerns like mine are about society and the way we live and are governed then I would advise you to read up on some of the things that our media doesn't tell us and hasn't in fact since about 1922.
Don't know how old you are Rob , but I remember this speech from 1975 . Kind of prophetic in many ways. albeit the figures have changed . In fact it's nigh on as prophetic as Enoch Powell' heavily misquoted speech relating to a quote regarding the River Tiber.
society as we know it is likely to fall apart in the UK following Brexit.
already public services are facing cuts the like of which have never been seen before.
as the country becomes even poorer due to Brexit then these problems will just increase.
Scotland wants to and probably will leave the union and so Brexit will have destroyed the UK.
the NHS will not survive without migrant workers from the EU (workers that contribute to the economy and do not take out of it)
meanwhile the increased strain on the NHS due to our ageing population (not as the right wing press would have you believe because of immigration) will get worse as thousands of elderly ex pats arrive back in the UK when they realise that they are no longer entitled to healthcare in the EU.
many major companies will leave the UK - already the banks are preparing to leave, and car manufacturers are providing no guarantees that they will stay
all the time the pound continues to fall, meaning the cost of imports continues to rise, and so the cost of living in the UK will become ever more expensive. if you are lucky enough to have a job, then wages will become worth less and less.
but never mind after all this was the will of the people. Brexit means Brexit
Jesus Christ this is just as ludicrous as the sort of "Brexit is the magic cure to everything" thinking at the other end of the spectrum.
Most of this is already happening so I don't really think so..
Do enjoy the inflation which is going up and up and up...
Public sector cuts, the increasing pressure on the NHS of an ageing population and the SNP using any excuse to try and drag Scotland out of the UK (despite not having consensus amongst her electorate for another referendum) are hardly post-June phenomena.
I must have missed the hordes of elderly ex-pats returning to our shores in the last 9 months and empty buildings and warehouses which have been abandoned by banks, major companies and car manufacturers.
The reality is that (other than the grossly-overvalued pound falling) this idea which was peddled by a lot of people that a Leave vote would cause an immediate seismic shock and economic depression simply hasn't materialised. Unless you count an inflation rate of 1.8% as being disastrous. There may be some knee-jerk reaction to the Article 50 announcement which will likely self-correct, and obviously the real test is what happens in two years time. But the prophecies of doom have been well wide of the mark so far.
northbank123 wrote:Public sector cuts, the increasing pressure on the NHS of an ageing population and the SNP using any excuse to try and drag Scotland out of the UK (despite not having consensus amongst her electorate for another referendum) are hardly post-June phenomena.
I must have missed the hordes of elderly ex-pats returning to our shores in the last 9 months and empty buildings and warehouses which have been abandoned by banks, major companies and car manufacturers.
The reality is that (other than the grossly-overvalued pound falling) this idea which was peddled by a lot of people that a Leave vote would cause an immediate seismic shock and economic depression simply hasn't materialised. Unless you count an inflation rate of 1.8% as being disastrous. There may be some knee-jerk reaction to the Article 50 announcement which will likely self-correct, and obviously the real test is what happens in two years time. But the prophecies of doom have been well wide of the mark so far.
I have said that the problems are already happening but the full effects won't be seen until Brexit gets going (2019)
yes the problems you mention already existed pre June 2016 but Brexit will just make things worse. I have never said that there would be immediate economic depression, it is just the gradual decline of the UK into global obscurity that I am more concerned with.
It is economic "self harm" which is completely pointless.
I was bought up on a North London market , as a child in the 50's & 60's you heard many things following the war, People were jittery , suspicious ,and very protectionist. All Powell did was voice in a speech what was being said on the streets.
I think u will find that itr was the "grinning pickeninny" anecdote of an invented local constituent that got him thrown out of the party ,that and the fact he was agitating against Heath
A11M11 wrote: I wonder if you people have actually read the speech that he was villified for . I would think you should as many of you would not have been old enough to have heard it first hand. As i said earlier he was diametrically opposite to Heath who was in the same circles as many newspaper owners who in those days had a lot more power in influencing public thoughts and they bought the whole gammut of their power to discredit him. Yes he was a divisive figure and he said a number of things which today in our overly PC world would be unacceptable but you have to put things in the context of things the way they were at the time.
"" It is very good that there are yellow French, black French, brown French. They show that France is open to all races and has a universal vocation. But [it is good] on condition that they remain a small minority. Otherwise, France would no longer be France. We are, after all, primarily a European people of the white race, Greek and Latin culture, and the Christian religion.
Don't tell me stories! Muslims, have you gone to see them? Have you watched them with their turbans and jellabiyas? You can see that they are not French! Those who advocate integration have the brain of a hummingbird. Try to mix oil and vinegar. Shake the bottle. After a second, they will separate again.
Arabs are Arabs, the French are French. Do you think the French body politic can absorb ten million Muslims, who tomorrow will be twenty million, after tomorrow forty? If we integrated, if all the Arabs and Berbers of Algeria were considered French, would you prevent them to settle in France, where the standard of living is so much higher? My village would no longer be called Colombey-The-Two-Churches but Colombey-The-Two-Mosques.""
That was a leader of a similar age , Charles de Gaulle a speech he won the man of the year award by Time magazine.
A total transformation to which there is no parallel in a thousand years of English history. In fifteen or twenty years, on present trends, there will be in this country 3 ½ million Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants. ... Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependents, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.
If all immigration ended tomorrow, the rate of growth of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population would be substantially reduced, but the prospective size of this element in the population would still leave the basic character of the national danger unaffected. This can only be tackled while a considerable proportion of the total still comprises persons who entered this country during the last ten years or so. Hence the urgency of implementing now the second element of the Conservative Party's policy: the encouragement of re-emigration.
All who are in this country as citizens should be equal before the law and that there shall be no discrimination or difference made between them by public authority. ... This does not mean that the immigrant and his descendants should be elevated into a privileged or special class or that the citizen should be denied his right to discriminate in the management of his own affairs between one fellow citizen and another.
There could be no grosser misconception of the realities than is entertained by those who vociferously demand legislation as they call it "against discrimination", whether they be leader-writers of the same kidney and sometimes on the same newspapers which year after year in the 1930s tried to blind this country to the rising peril which confronted it, or archbishops who live in palaces, faring delicately with the bedclothes pulled right over their heads.
To be integrated into a population means to become for all practical purposes indistinguishable from its other members. Now, at all times, where there are marked physical differences, especially of colour, integration is difficult though, over a period, not impossible.
As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."
De Gualle's speech was more flowery could say more eloquent but essentially the message was the same. It was the way things were in those days . You have to judge the world the way it was , you can't put today's morals on yesterday's happenings.
I was bought up on a North London market , as a child in the 50's & 60's you heard many things following the war, People were jittery , suspicious ,and very protectionist. All Powell did was voice in a speech what was being said on the streets.
He was vilified (rightly) for more than that one speech, mate.
You are quoting a xenophobic and racist speech from 1968 to justify some of the less palatable attitudes around Brexit, excusing that racism because it was a "different time" and because it was similar to stuff "being said on the streets"? You can't see the paradox there? Or how unsavory that is to most right-thinking people? There is plenty of racist things still being said on the streets nowadays, but by ignorant racist scum.
Blaming a country's problems on immigration is the inflammatory cheap shot of the far right, of nazis, of racists. It discounts and ignores the millions of immigrants that work hard, pay taxes and improve the business and cultural and social structure of a country.
Why quote Charles de Gaulle? Two wrongs don't make a right.
To be fair ive also heard the words...... "pound of mush - 50" loudly shouted from markets doesnt mean i have like mushrooms, to be honest i do but thats not my point
Gunner Rob wrote:
I have said that the problems are already happening but the full effects won't be seen until Brexit gets going (2019)
yes the problems you mention already existed pre June 2016 but Brexit will just make things worse. I have never said that there would be immediate economic depression, it is just the gradual decline of the UK into global obscurity that I am more concerned with.
It is economic "self harm" which is completely pointless.
Talking about self harmers, to paraphrase dont you mean judge Brexit in May
Gunner Rob wrote:
I have said that the problems are already happening but the full effects won't be seen until Brexit gets going (2019)
yes the problems you mention already existed pre June 2016 but Brexit will just make things worse. I have never said that there would be immediate economic depression, it is just the gradual decline of the UK into global obscurity that I am more concerned with.
It is economic "self harm" which is completely pointless.
Talking about self harmers, to paraphrase dont you mean judge Brexit in May
May 2019 might have more of an idea I suppose
Leavers do remind me of AKBs though - completely out of touch with the reality of the modern world and how to succeed in it.
we are about to leave the EU single market, the largest trading area in the world. why would anyone even think this could be a good idea ??
Gunner Rob wrote:
I have said that the problems are already happening but the full effects won't be seen until Brexit gets going (2019)
yes the problems you mention already existed pre June 2016 but Brexit will just make things worse. I have never said that there would be immediate economic depression, it is just the gradual decline of the UK into global obscurity that I am more concerned with.
It is economic "self harm" which is completely pointless.
Talking about self harmers, to paraphrase dont you mean judge Brexit in May
May 2019 might have more of an idea I suppose
Leavers do remind me of AKBs though - completely out of touch with the reality of the modern world and how to succeed in it.
we are about to leave the EU single market, the largest trading area in the world. why would anyone even think this could be a good idea ??
Lighten up Rob the sun will burn out in a billion or so years anyway so it wont matter about Brexit by then
