The Reason vs Superstition Thread

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GranadaJoe
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The Reason vs Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:10 pm

Over recent months and years much discussion has been had over God(s), religion etc on these pages. Most recently in the R.I.P. thread, which is probably not the most sensitive place to host it. I would like, on this thread, over time, to put the case for reason and evidence over superstition. I personally made the transition from believer(of sorts) to not sure to agnostic (but a bit nervous) to born again atheist.

I would particularly like to save DB10 from the 'original sin', kiddy-fiddling cult that he, through no fault of his own, found himself born into, but in general I would like to bring people over from superstition and faith to reason and evidence and to give some support to anybody in limbo between the two. I would at least like to offer some things to think about.

This being a Forum, everyone's contributions are welcome. I would ask though that we stick to the topic of the week as this type of debate can become very disjointed and messy.

This is particularly true when discussing religion, as religions encompass faith, history, culture, politics etc. Therefore, I will begin by discussing theism in general and don't want any specific religion or religions in general brought into the debate. Their time will come.

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:30 pm

Given that most logicians argue that you cannot prove a negative I will not attempt to prove 100% that gods do not exist. I think 99% is possible though.

Arguments against theism fall into two main camps; logical and evidential. Today I'll start with a predominately logical argument. EVIL :twisted:

All theistic beliefs contain notions of good and evil and I suspect most theists struggle with the compatibility of a God with the presence of evil. Tsunamis that kill 250,000 people in one day. Child abuse. Disease. Pain etc.

So what is the God / Evil conundrum?

1) If god(s) is willing but unable to remove evil from the world he/she is NOT omnipotent

2) If god is able but not willing he is malevolent

3) If he is able and willing then how did evil come into the world and why is it still here bringing agony and misery to millions

4) If he is not able nor willing why believe he is god

The problem of evil was a major factor in the development of my doubts, and I would like to hear how believers feel about this conundrum and how they reconcile it with their faith and religion.

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northbank123
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby northbank123 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:38 pm

I don't believe in magic.

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Rugby Gooner
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Rugby Gooner » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:50 pm

I don't believe in magic.
Not even in "Merse", or Wenkers "Magic Hat" ? :shock: :D

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby DB10GOONER » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:57 am

:tumbleweed:

Fuck me, a debate is a debate, but sorry, this is mind numbingly repetitive now. :roll:

Let's cut this thread to the pertinent FACTS; I believe people have the right to either believe in God/religion or choose not to. You, on the other hand, are a communist that will burn in Hell.

Done.

Thank you.


:lol: :wink:

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby DB10GOONER » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:58 am

I don't believe in magic.
Not even in "Merse", or Wenkers "Magic Hat" ? :shock: :D
Arsene's Magic Hat unfortunately turned out to be only topped with magic, underneath it was filled up with 10 years of shit. :lol:

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:54 am

:tumbleweed:

Fuck me, a debate is a debate, but sorry, this is mind numbingly repetitive now. :roll:

Let's cut this thread to the pertinent FACTS; I believe people have the right to either believe in God/religion or choose not to. You, on the other hand, are a communist that will burn in Hell.

Done.

Thank you.


:lol: :wink:

People have the right to believe in Odin, Xenu and the tooth fairy. I've never suggested that people don't, but just as Christians are supposed to evangelise, rational people can and should as well.

Many clergy, especially when they start studying their holy texts become atheists, so there must be hope for you!

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:29 am

DB10's salvation clearly needs a little more work.

God cannot be disproved. However, absence of absolute proof of non-existence does not imply existence. We can't disprove Father Christmas or the Easter Bunny. It doesn't though follow that they do exist.

There are in excess of 10,000 religions in the world. There are over 34,000 sub-sects of Christianity alone. Every religion and every sub-sect believes that their beliefs are true and everybody else's is false.

Those believers have the same experiences and came to their faith in the same ways as each other. Their faith is as true and profound as everybody else's.

So what is the probability that your belief is the true one and that the other five billion people are wrong?

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby DB10GOONER » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:55 am

DB10's salvation clearly needs a little more work.

God cannot be disproved. However, absence of absolute proof of non-existence does not imply existence. We can't disprove Father Christmas or the Easter Bunny. It doesn't though follow that they do exist.

There are in excess of 10,000 religions in the world. There are over 34,000 sub-sects of Christianity alone. Every religion and every sub-sect believes that their beliefs are true and everybody else's is false.

Those believers have the same experiences and came to their faith in the same ways as each other. Their faith is as true and profound as everybody else's.

So what is the probability that your belief is the true one and that the other five billion people are wrong?
Fucks sake, cannot believe I'm getting dragged back into this.... :roll: :lol:

You, like all arrogant atheist attention seekers ( :D :wink: ) are looking at it from the wrong end. All monotheist religions have one founding belief; there is one God. What they choose to call him/her/it is a matter of semantics, geography, and language. Now days most moderates within those religions accept that other religions are basically preaching the same stuff, bar cosmetic differences, and don't feel the need to say "every other religion is wrong". That type of lunacy is really only spouted by fundamentalists and some religious hierarchies - which brings me back to my point that many modern believers in (for example) Christianity don't necessarily believe every word in the Bible is hard fast historical fact, but rather it's a series of moral lessons (some maybe true, some not) that teach people to live by a certain moral code - so yes they pick and choose what to believe in and how to live their life. I do not see any problem with that. If it helps them be better people, then great.

Also, just to nip your silly goading in the bud, I am not a religious person per se. I just find it offensive when people (be they religious fundamentalist or atheists) dictate that what they believe is the only thing anyone should believe, and then set out to insult and belittle the faith or beliefs of other people. And that is how I view many (not all) atheists - in the same way I view the moronic religious fundamentalists; intractable, brain-washed and ignorant - summed up by stupid sweeping statements like "All religions are evil and bring nothing but evil".

Now, that is my final post on this, as it is mind-numbingly boring to read the two of us basically just repeating our arguments. :barmaid:

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby northbank123 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:55 am

Proselytism is a feature of most major religions, meaning that believers are encouraged (if not compelled) to try and convert those who do not follow the religion and are therefore wrong or in need of help. Thankfully it's a teaching which is either ignored or practised very gently and sensibly by most in this country.

Arsene Wenger's Magic Hat was enchanted at best, more likely a placebo.

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby officepest » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:20 pm

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Brightonnxtround » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:44 pm

I'm a none believer I bet your all surprised :lol: and quite often have the believing types coming round on a Sunday
Knocking on doors cold calling I find this intensely annoying :banghead: :banghead: why do they feel the need to force their God onto me and my none believing family after all I would not dream of going round there gaff and say hay forget
God and come down the fucking pub to get blavered .... I also agree with office pest they drag kids round with them
And that's child abuse in fact next time they call I'll report them to police :twisted:

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:13 pm

DB10's salvation clearly needs a little more work.

God cannot be disproved. However, absence of absolute proof of non-existence does not imply existence. We can't disprove Father Christmas or the Easter Bunny. It doesn't though follow that they do exist.

There are in excess of 10,000 religions in the world. There are over 34,000 sub-sects of Christianity alone. Every religion and every sub-sect believes that their beliefs are true and everybody else's is false.

Those believers have the same experiences and came to their faith in the same ways as each other. Their faith is as true and profound as everybody else's.

So what is the probability that your belief is the true one and that the other five billion people are wrong?
Fucks sake, cannot believe I'm getting dragged back into this.... :roll: :lol:

You, like all arrogant atheist attention seekers ( :D :wink: ) are looking at it from the wrong end. All monotheist religions have one founding belief; there is one God. What they choose to call him/her/it is a matter of semantics, geography, and language. Now days most moderates within those religions accept that other religions are basically preaching the same stuff, bar cosmetic differences, and don't feel the need to say "every other religion is wrong". That type of lunacy is really only spouted by fundamentalists and some religious hierarchies - which brings me back to my point that many modern believers in (for example) Christianity don't necessarily believe every word in the Bible is hard fast historical fact, but rather it's a series of moral lessons (some maybe true, some not) that teach people to live by a certain moral code - so yes they pick and choose what to believe in and how to live their life. I do not see any problem with that. If it helps them be better people, then great.

Also, just to nip your silly goading in the bud, I am not a religious person per se. I just find it offensive when people (be they religious fundamentalist or atheists) dictate that what they believe is the only thing anyone should believe, and then set out to insult and belittle the faith or beliefs of other people. And that is how I view many (not all) atheists - in the same way I view the moronic religious fundamentalists; intractable, brain-washed and ignorant - summed up by stupid sweeping statements like "All religions are evil and bring nothing but evil".

Now, that is my final post on this, as it is mind-numbingly boring to read the two of us basically just repeating our arguments. :barmaid:

Just because monotheists believe in one God doesn't mean they believe in the same God. Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, Muslims that he was just another prophet and Jews that he was a false messiah. I don't think you can dress that up as 'basically preaching the same stuff'.
I know some very liberal believers (mainly Christians) believe the main monotheistic religions are worshipping the same god, but I think they're a very small minority.

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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Brightonnxtround » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:26 pm

Hang on did you not want a discussion on this or not
In my view all religions are either the fear of death or the embracing of it ....
2 book ends I have no fear of being dead I only fear the mana of my death my conscience is clear
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :box:


What a great thread :lol: :lol: wish I'd thought of it

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:52 pm

DB10's reply contained quite a bit about comparative religion, but I expressly want to stay away from discussing religion.

At this stage I want to concentrate on 'belief'. i.e. Why believe in any god or gods?

My intention in mentioning the tens of thousands of different religions and their thousands of sub-sects was to highlight the improbability that any one of them is true. It then follows I think that it is reasonable to conclude that none of them are likely to be true.

To pick up on some of the above posts about children; Q: How do you get a child to believe something? A. Tell them it.

Children innately believe what adults tell them. Years ago I told my daughter's classmates that their teacher was 168 years old. When one solitary kid expressed surprise I explained that she was born before electricity was invented and that convinced him. It was quite a while before they were convinced that she was only 48.

When we are young we believe in Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and God (s). As we get older we discover that there is reliable evidence to suggest that the first three don't exist and no convincing evidence that they do. We therefore stop believing in them.
So why don't we apply the same scepticism and logic to god? The same scepticism and logic that we utilise in the rest of our lives.

Maybe fear (Hell is pretty scary). Maybe the social elements of religion. Maybe it's just the quantity of unsubstantiated stories involved or the administrative structure of religions.
I don't know, but I'm sure that if believers applied the same standards to their belief in god as they do to the Easter Bunny etc they would come to the conclusion that there is no more evidence to support one than the other.


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