The Reason vs Superstition Thread

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Red Snapper
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Red Snapper » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:54 am

If my memory of lusting after Jenny Hanley are correct, six magpies is for gold, not the lottery! You just looked for the wrong thing mate. :wink:

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:25 pm

If my memory of lusting after Jenny Hanley are correct, six magpies is for gold, not the lottery! You just looked for the wrong thing mate. :wink:

I'm pretty sure that I once saw an episode where she made a bikini out of newspaper, though it might be my imagination. However, in this instance, I choose to believe it's true.

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:39 pm

OMNIPOTENCE

Norse, Greek and other gods were never considered omnipotent. They had emotions, foibles and weaknesses. However, monotheists generally believe that their God is all-powerful.

So is this possible?

I remember at junior school talking to a friend about the classic 'if God is all-powerful, can he make a rock that's so heavy even he can't lift it?'
It's a simple example but a very good question. It highlights the absurdity of omnipotence'.

So if omnipotence is impossible, what is God?
A god that can do some things, or most things is more logical than an omnipotent one, but it runs contrary to all Christian, Muslim and Jewish teaching.

On a practical level if god is omnipotent, why does he then order circumcision? Why do babies die at birth? Why does the main source of light that he created give us skin cancer?

There is also a problem with omnipotence and free will.
If god created everything, is everywhere and knows everything, how can free will exists.
He made you how he chose to and knew exactly what you would do in the future, so do you have free will?

Red Snapper
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Red Snapper » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:26 pm

If my memory of lusting after Jenny Hanley are correct, six magpies is for gold, not the lottery! You just looked for the wrong thing mate. :wink:

I'm pretty sure that I once saw an episode where she made a bikini out of newspaper, though it might be my imagination. However, in this instance, I choose to believe it's true.
Couldn't find one in a bikini but hope this one will do;

http://iv1.lisimg.com/image/4590005/600 ... hanley.jpg

I think this conclusively proves that there is a God! (To respect the theme of the thread).

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augie
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby augie » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:24 pm

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.



It's funny cos I'm not sure if or what I believe, and I'm certainly very much non practicing, but I do believe that kids should be brought up with some sort of religion - the way I have always looked at it, is that when my kids get old enough to make their own minds up then they can choose what they want to do, but if they don't grow up with any type of religion then how are they ever gonna be in a position to make a choice ? :? I mean, people seem to believe that kids shouldnt have religion in their upbringing, but if parents decide not to have religion in their household, then are they not pushing their lack of faith on their kids in the same way parents that are religious are pushing their faith on their kids ?
I think that it is one of these issues where the same arguments can be made by both sides of this debate, but of course neither side can accept that fact :roll:

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Nos89
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Nos89 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:11 am

I have this discussion regularly with my missus. She doesn't believe in God, but she does believe in spirits, Guardian Angels and the Devil. I don't understand how you can believe in one without the other as they are connected.
It's not a big issue with me as I am a religious and have my beliefs. It works for me, but I wouldn't impose it on anyone else.
I don't believe religion should ever be used as a justification to commit acts of harm and terror on another person or persons. Just be straight it's about power and money, hiding behind a religious belief is just cowardly.

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Nos89
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Nos89 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:25 am

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.



It's funny cos I'm not sure if or what I believe, and I'm certainly very much non practicing, but I do believe that kids should be brought up with some sort of religion - the way I have always looked at it, is that when my kids get old enough to make their own minds up then they can choose what they want to do, but if they don't grow up with any type of religion then how are they ever gonna be in a position to make a choice ? :? I mean, people seem to believe that kids shouldnt have religion in their upbringing, but if parents decide not to have religion in their household, then are they not pushing their lack of faith on their kids in the same way parents that are religious are pushing their faith on their kids ?
I think that it is one of these issues where the same arguments can be made by both sides of this debate, but of course neither side can accept that fact :roll:
Whatever the religion is, I think it gives some structure to a household. A continuation of cultural identity and discipline to a child. Then as a person gets older they can decide for themselves. As a child I was forced to go to church, as soon as I could I stopped but eventually found my way back because i realised I didn't have to go to church to have a belief. For a start I hate the ostentatious and expensive decorative elements within the church. The constant plea for donations is an insult to the teachings of the religion. It repels me from going to church, but doesn't stop me having the faith and belief that I do.

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DB10GOONER
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby DB10GOONER » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:27 am

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.



It's funny cos I'm not sure if or what I believe, and I'm certainly very much non practicing, but I do believe that kids should be brought up with some sort of religion - the way I have always looked at it, is that when my kids get old enough to make their own minds up then they can choose what they want to do, but if they don't grow up with any type of religion then how are they ever gonna be in a position to make a choice ? :? I mean, people seem to believe that kids shouldnt have religion in their upbringing, but if parents decide not to have religion in their household, then are they not pushing their lack of faith on their kids in the same way parents that are religious are pushing their faith on their kids ?
I think that it is one of these issues where the same arguments can be made by both sides of this debate, but of course neither side can accept that fact :roll:
Whatever the religion is, I think it gives some structure to a household. A continuation of cultural identity and discipline to a child. Then as a person gets older they can decide for themselves. As a child I was forced to go to church, as soon as I could I stopped but eventually found my way back because i realised I didn't have to go to church to have a belief. For a start I hate the ostentatious and expensive decorative elements within the church. The constant plea for donations is an insult to the teachings of the religion. It repels me from going to church, but doesn't stop me having the faith and belief that I do.
Without wishing to intrude and you certainly don't have to answer this, but I'm guessing from your post you are Roman Catholic? :wink:

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:12 am

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.



It's funny cos I'm not sure if or what I believe, and I'm certainly very much non practicing, but I do believe that kids should be brought up with some sort of religion - the way I have always looked at it, is that when my kids get old enough to make their own minds up then they can choose what they want to do, but if they don't grow up with any type of religion then how are they ever gonna be in a position to make a choice ? :? I mean, people seem to believe that kids shouldnt have religion in their upbringing, but if parents decide not to have religion in their household, then are they not pushing their lack of faith on their kids in the same way parents that are religious are pushing their faith on their kids ?
I think that it is one of these issues where the same arguments can be made by both sides of this debate, but of course neither side can accept that fact :roll:
Could you teach your kids that there are different religions? Each with some similarities and some differences. They then have a choice to make.

If we teach them that one is 'true' and that there are rewards for believing in that one and punishments for not believing it's going to be difficult for them to make a different choice.

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:45 am

The last of the logic posts before we get onto the evidential reasons for not believing.

All religions have holy texts, rites, rules etc. All state that they contain eternal truths, yet if you chart their history, the interpretations and therefore practices change as society changes; so how can they be eternal truths?

E.G. Most holy books don't have a problem with slavery, rape, killing etc (nor the 'smaller' rules about eating prawns etc), yet most 'right-thinking' people in the modern world think they are wrong. Therefore they are disagreeing with their holy scripture. So if man decides what is right and wrong, and man's decisions can change over time how can we conclude that ANY part of the texts is eternal and universal? A subjective God cannot be God. If man cannot agree on interpretation there cannot be moral certainty.

The problems we are having with fundamentalism are in many ways caused by people returning to a literal interpretation of their texts.

I find it worrying on many levels when SJWs try to say that these people are not following their religion. The Westboro baptists can correctly point to passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality. ISIS can correctly point to passages allowing the rape of captured girls. Whether we like it or not, and whether or not we can find other passages that contradict those abhorrent teachings, the passages do exist.

All religions arose in a definite and discernable place and time, which I think shows that they are a product of the specific culture. Gods created by man, not the other way round.
Myths are localised. Regions prone to flooding have flood myths. Societies from mountainous regions don't have flood myths.

When men created gods it may have been useful, but I don't think it's useful now. We live in a world where knowledge is valued, and where, in their daily lives people usually value knowledge above belief. Knowledge helps you achieve your goals. If we have a bad stomachache we tend to go to the doctor, who's had seven years training and who bases his decision on science and evidence, rather than the bloke who says that you're possessed by evil spirits and that an exorcism is the best way to go.

Knowledge will always be preferable to belief.

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Nos89
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Nos89 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:53 pm

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.



It's funny cos I'm not sure if or what I believe, and I'm certainly very much non practicing, but I do believe that kids should be brought up with some sort of religion - the way I have always looked at it, is that when my kids get old enough to make their own minds up then they can choose what they want to do, but if they don't grow up with any type of religion then how are they ever gonna be in a position to make a choice ? :? I mean, people seem to believe that kids shouldnt have religion in their upbringing, but if parents decide not to have religion in their household, then are they not pushing their lack of faith on their kids in the same way parents that are religious are pushing their faith on their kids ?
I think that it is one of these issues where the same arguments can be made by both sides of this debate, but of course neither side can accept that fact :roll:
Whatever the religion is, I think it gives some structure to a household. A continuation of cultural identity and discipline to a child. Then as a person gets older they can decide for themselves. As a child I was forced to go to church, as soon as I could I stopped but eventually found my way back because i realised I didn't have to go to church to have a belief. For a start I hate the ostentatious and expensive decorative elements within the church. The constant plea for donations is an insult to the teachings of the religion. It repels me from going to church, but doesn't stop me having the faith and belief that I do.
Without wishing to intrude and you certainly don't have to answer this, but I'm guessing from your post you are Roman Catholic? :wink:
Close...Greek Orthodox.

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augie
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby augie » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:37 am

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.



It's funny cos I'm not sure if or what I believe, and I'm certainly very much non practicing, but I do believe that kids should be brought up with some sort of religion - the way I have always looked at it, is that when my kids get old enough to make their own minds up then they can choose what they want to do, but if they don't grow up with any type of religion then how are they ever gonna be in a position to make a choice ? :? I mean, people seem to believe that kids shouldnt have religion in their upbringing, but if parents decide not to have religion in their household, then are they not pushing their lack of faith on their kids in the same way parents that are religious are pushing their faith on their kids ?
I think that it is one of these issues where the same arguments can be made by both sides of this debate, but of course neither side can accept that fact :roll:
Could you teach your kids that there are different religions? Each with some similarities and some differences. They then have a choice to make.

If we teach them that one is 'true' and that there are rewards for believing in that one and punishments for not believing it's going to be difficult for them to make a different choice.


Yes and no - on one hand I would have no objection to them picking another religion, but at the same time I certainly would not be in a position to educate them on the different religions seeing as I barely know enough of my own :lol: I went to Christmas Day mass a few years back and was shocked to discover that the fcukers had changed all the responses to the prayers - I hadn't a fcuking clue what was going on, and my wife nearly pissed herself laughing at me :lol:

If we are being honest here, I would have to say that I would certainly oppose my children becoming muslims - I absolutely accept that the vast, vast majority of muslims are peaceful people, but any religion that has enough vagueness for some people to suggest that it advocates violence/terrorism, is an absolute no no for me. As I have said before, I would also take issue with the fact that the muslim community do not seem to condemn the acts of terrorism - not condoning the acts is not enough imo

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:50 pm

Grown adults are of course free to believe in whatever they choose. The indoctrination of children, however, is despicable.



It's funny cos I'm not sure if or what I believe, and I'm certainly very much non practicing, but I do believe that kids should be brought up with some sort of religion - the way I have always looked at it, is that when my kids get old enough to make their own minds up then they can choose what they want to do, but if they don't grow up with any type of religion then how are they ever gonna be in a position to make a choice ? :? I mean, people seem to believe that kids shouldnt have religion in their upbringing, but if parents decide not to have religion in their household, then are they not pushing their lack of faith on their kids in the same way parents that are religious are pushing their faith on their kids ?
I think that it is one of these issues where the same arguments can be made by both sides of this debate, but of course neither side can accept that fact :roll:
Could you teach your kids that there are different religions? Each with some similarities and some differences. They then have a choice to make.

If we teach them that one is 'true' and that there are rewards for believing in that one and punishments for not believing it's going to be difficult for them to make a different choice.


Yes and no - on one hand I would have no objection to them picking another religion, but at the same time I certainly would not be in a position to educate them on the different religions seeing as I barely know enough of my own :lol: I went to Christmas Day mass a few years back and was shocked to discover that the fcukers had changed all the responses to the prayers - I hadn't a fcuking clue what was going on, and my wife nearly pissed herself laughing at me :lol:

If we are being honest here, I would have to say that I would certainly oppose my children becoming muslims - I absolutely accept that the vast, vast majority of muslims are peaceful people, but any religion that has enough vagueness for some people to suggest that it advocates violence/terrorism, is an absolute no no for me. As I have said before, I would also take issue with the fact that the muslim community do not seem to condemn the acts of terrorism - not condoning the acts is not enough imo

You could just teach him the Golden Rule; "Treat others how you would like to be treated". It's not a perfect rule, but it's a pretty good way to go through life. And he won't be frightened about himself or his loved ones burning in hell should he not be able to live up to it every once in a while.

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Brightonnxtround
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby Brightonnxtround » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:13 pm

I have 3 children none have been christened they have all over the years asked questions and the above is very true and I have always repeated it ,has certainly worked for my kids there not perfect " they can't be they have me has a dad " but there not bad either :D and I believe that not having them christened gives them a choice they can follow which path they want or not as the case mybe

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GranadaJoe
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Re: The Reason v Superstition Thread

Postby GranadaJoe » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:33 am

Away from philosophy and logic and onto evidence.

How many kings/wise men visited the baby Jesus?

For most of my life I believed there were three. I even knew their names; Melchior, Caspar and Balthazar (the last of whom was black). I was told that they were martyred and that their bones are interred in Cologne cathedral.

I later learned that the Bible does not mention how many, simply that men from the East came bearing three gifts.

So why do most people believe that three came. If I'd read the Bible when I was young I might have reasoned that three men brought a gift each, but three of my family have just given my Mum one present, so the logic clearly isn't very sound.

I evidently believed in three because that's what people told me and I'd never investigated or considered the evidence. This is how religious people, and Christians especially, gain most of their beliefs. How many Christians do you know? How many of them have read the Bible cover to cover? We believe what we're told, especially if we trust the messenger. I always think it's weird that people, my past self included, think that the Bible is the revealed word of God, but they never bother to read it.
To only read the Bible and not consider other evidence couldn't be considered good research, but most of us don't read anything.

If we're thinking of buying a new car we usually do lots of research online, talk to other people, consider all the evidence, weigh up different opinions, take test drives etc, but where our everlasting soul is concerned ............... ??????????

In subsequent posts I'm going to highlight some of the WTF moments that I experienced when I actually did some research about the things I believed.


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