Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[Redarmy]

If he wins the league this season then it goes up there in the history of the club as one of its greatest ever achievements. Wenger transformed the club in 1996 and broke Man United's dominance, but it really was the dominance of one club only with a brief bit of 'steel cash' thrown in by Blackburn which disappeared as soon as it arrived. The Liverpool team that finished 3rd in Wenger's first title winning season lost 9 games and ended up with 65 points. The Chavs lost 15 and finished 4th !!

Roll forward to 2002 - 3rd placed Man Ure lost 9 games, 4th placed Newcastle also 9. The top 3 between them have lost 9 games this season and arguably won't lose any more.

The Invincibles had the title wrapped up with games to spare, before the Chavs finished a distant 2nd losing 7 games. Their record of 90 points would have won last season's league by a single point, they would have finished 3rd in 2022, 4 points clear in 2021, runners up by 9 points in 2020, and third in 2019 (trailing the runners up by 7 points!).

The standards of the top 3 are now off the scale. It isn't just beating Man Ure once every other season or four.....its about competing with teams that have some of the best talents in world football and where the average number of points it takes to win a title is 93.....three more points than our greatest team in history ever managed.

I have been as critical as anyone about Arteta. I think he was a very lucky boy during the COVID times and has had the backing that no Arsenal manager before him has ever enjoyed. But despite all of that it takes something extra extra special to win the PL these days - way more than the brain dead days of English football in the 90s when managers like Big Ron and Fat Sam were still favoured by many an Ingerlish chairman!

As an established "oldie" Steve O, I prefer to go by what my eyes tell me more than what the stats say - so forgetting things like pts, league tables and opposition teams, I look at this AFC team and I have to say that there is no way it is as good a team as title winning GG teams, and it isnt fit to be in the same park as the title winning wenger teams in terms of quality. There is no Bergkamp, no TA6, no PV4, no Henry or no seaman in this team. That being said, all any team can do is be the best in their own league, and if we win the league I wont care that this is not as good a team as previous AFC league winners, however what your stats from bygone era's conveniently ignores is the difference that money has made to the gap between the big clubs and the rest - reality is that every season these clubs are receiving huge money for european qualification and if they are getting that money year after year, then obviously the gap is going to get wider and wider domestically, and hence the big clubs will lose fewer games to the smaller teams nowadays.

Your right fella....in my opinon that team will never be bettered.....

[the playing mantis]

So Arteta has taken 4 points off Klopp's Liverpool and Pep's City and they only have a point against us. Plus Arteta beat pep in the community shield. We are now competing in every big occasion.

Plus we are breaking records. First team to score 2+ goals in eight consecutive halves of Premier League football and also the first team in English top-flight history to win three straight games by a 5+ goal margin. Broke our own record for scoring from set pieces in a season.

Time to acknowledge Mikel is the best young coach in world football and give him the credit he deserves. Totally reversed our fortunes.

He has definitely got us competing again.
However let’s see how the end of season goes before getting carried away shall we ? He still hasn’t won anything much - the last 2 Arsenal managers in post for as long as Arteta has had won league titles within 3 years.

I still don’t see us winning the league this season - the lack of a top quality goal scorer will cost us in the end (something which should have been addressed last summer). Defensively he deserves some plaudits though - we once again have the best defence in the country and it’s great to see.

The irony is that he didnt want saliba and bought ben white to play centre back The double irony is that after last seasons collapse he realised that he cant survive without saliba and he then tried to squeeze gabriel out at the start of this season and didnt pick him for the first few games

Pure speculation augie.

You don't know any of that as a fact, as much as I share many if your views, this is unproven. Having played slaiba all last season I doubt it was his absence that made him realise he couldn't do without...suspect it was a tad earlier.

There was more at play with Gabriel as well.

There should be credit where its due.

[the playing mantis]

So Arteta has taken 4 points off Klopp's Liverpool and Pep's City and they only have a point against us. Plus Arteta beat pep in the community shield. We are now competing in every big occasion.

Plus we are breaking records. First team to score 2+ goals in eight consecutive halves of Premier League football and also the first team in English top-flight history to win three straight games by a 5+ goal margin. Broke our own record for scoring from set pieces in a season.

Time to acknowledge Mikel is the best young coach in world football and give him the credit he deserves. Totally reversed our fortunes.

He has definitely got us competing again.
However let’s see how the end of season goes before getting carried away shall we ? He still hasn’t won anything much - the last 2 Arsenal managers in post for as long as Arteta has had won league titles within 3 years.

I still don’t see us winning the league this season - the lack of a top quality goal scorer will cost us in the end (something which should have been addressed last summer). Defensively he deserves some plaudits though - we once again have the best defence in the country and it’s great to see.

Spot on. 3rd is where we should be as a minimum given the crappiness of the league, but to be mixing it with City and victims, too a lesser extent, is credible so far. However we need to be within a few points come season end, even if we don't win it, for it to be anything more than par performance, and well above 4th place.

[Viv Andersons Tache]

If the suggestion is 3rd is a par season then it’s a pretty much an admission the manager has raised the bar and standards for Arsenal. Thats pretty cool eh. Good times ahead

Augies list of daft questions that were being championed seem a long time ago eh.

[SteveO 35]

There's 3rd by the odd point, and 3rd by a distant 10-12 points after a serious collapse. That will tell me ultimately if this team has moved on from last season. There have been consistent gains in the past couple of seasons, and the next step is to last the pace. April was a clusterfuck last season - as much caused by mental fragility and a weak spine as anything else. I won't be critical of the team if Liverpool go on to win every single game between now and the end of the season and we miss out on the title by the odd point. Where I will say "same old same old" is if we collapse and end up as far behind as we did last season

Arteta is facing the kind of problem anyone taking the England job does - years and years of being Banter FC, known for being the nearly men and coming up short when it really matters. That doesn't take a year or two to change - its a deep rooted cultural change that requires a different mentality and different personnel. With Clubfoot Clive gone, and >4 years at the helm, now is the time for us to start seeing that next step, and I think to a degree we already are. The next step is not to collapse. Remember Liverpool missed out on the title with 1 defeat and 97 points in 2019! If people think that's failure they are deluded. They needed to go toe to toe with City until the very end and ultimately it gave them the belief to go and win it the following year. If Liverpool win every game between now and the end of the season they end with 94 points, and if we did likewise it would be 92 points.......2 more than our greatest ever Invincibles team managed. That would be a remarkable achievement - another team's absolute brilliance wouldn't mean our season was a failure. Failure now, is we have the sort of April we did last season - that's when I'd be saying that after £000m of investment it would be hard to notice a tangible difference in mindset to the teams of Arsenal past

[Retro Gunner]

There's 3rd by the odd point, and 3rd by a distant 10-12 points after a serious collapse. That will tell me ultimately if this team has moved on from last season. There have been consistent gains in the past couple of seasons, and the next step is to last the pace. April was a clusterfuck last season - as much caused by mental fragility and a weak spine as anything else. I won't be critical of the team if Liverpool go on to win every single game between now and the end of the season and we miss out on the title by the odd point. Where I will say "same old same old" is if we collapse and end up as far behind as we did last season

Arteta is facing the kind of problem anyone taking the England job does - years and years of being Banter FC, known for being the nearly men and coming up short when it really matters. That doesn't take a year or two to change - its a deep rooted cultural change that requires a different mentality and different personnel. With Clubfoot Clive gone, and >4 years at the helm, now is the time for us to start seeing that next step, and I think to a degree we already are. The next step is not to collapse. Remember Liverpool missed out on the title with 1 defeat and 97 points in 2019! If people think that's failure they are deluded. They needed to go toe to toe with City until the very end and ultimately it gave them the belief to go and win it the following year. If Liverpool win every game between now and the end of the season they end with 94 points, and if we did likewise it would be 92 points.......2 more than our greatest ever Invincibles team managed. That would be a remarkable achievement - another team's absolute brilliance wouldn't mean our season was a failure. Failure now, is we have the sort of April we did last season - that's when I'd be saying that after £000m of investment it would be hard to notice a tangible difference in mindset to the teams of Arsenal past

So you’re saying that we need to go to the next level. What is the next level? I assume it’s the next level?

[Stuart L (2)]

There's 3rd by the odd point, and 3rd by a distant 10-12 points after a serious collapse. That will tell me ultimately if this team has moved on from last season. There have been consistent gains in the past couple of seasons, and the next step is to last the pace. April was a clusterfuck last season - as much caused by mental fragility and a weak spine as anything else. I won't be critical of the team if Liverpool go on to win every single game between now and the end of the season and we miss out on the title by the odd point. Where I will say "same old same old" is if we collapse and end up as far behind as we did last season

Arteta is facing the kind of problem anyone taking the England job does - years and years of being Banter FC, known for being the nearly men and coming up short when it really matters. That doesn't take a year or two to change - its a deep rooted cultural change that requires a different mentality and different personnel. With Clubfoot Clive gone, and >4 years at the helm, now is the time for us to start seeing that next step, and I think to a degree we already are. The next step is not to collapse. Remember Liverpool missed out on the title with 1 defeat and 97 points in 2019! If people think that's failure they are deluded. They needed to go toe to toe with City until the very end and ultimately it gave them the belief to go and win it the following year. If Liverpool win every game between now and the end of the season they end with 94 points, and if we did likewise it would be 92 points.......2 more than our greatest ever Invincibles team managed. That would be a remarkable achievement - another team's absolute brilliance wouldn't mean our season was a failure. Failure now, is we have the sort of April we did last season - that's when I'd be saying that after £000m of investment it would be hard to notice a tangible difference in mindset to the teams of Arsenal past

Good post SteveO

We all concurred that whoever took over from Wenker, had a huge task in getting shot of the big time Charlie’s that infested the squad on fat contracts with no desire to earn them.

Unai started it, but the undesirables fought against him and sadly he lost, he seemed a decent chap ( even if he was hard to understand )
We are 9 points, with a game in hand in front of 4th place Villa, so baring the mother of all collapses we will be in the Champions Leaggue again next season with a top 3 finish.

We are back in the top tier in the premier league, whether we can actually climb to the very top remains to be seen, but I know for sure that Arteta will look to push on again with signings in the summer to make us better again. The defence is sorted for the next 5 years, so we strengthen up top / wide with potentially another midfielder to replace Partey and leaves an ageing Jorginho as cover.

The purchase of Rice, for more than we expected to pay, may have prevented us buying the striker I think we all believe we need to put away more of the chances we create, but it was a case of now or never, because if we didn’t he would have gone to City, which would have put them even further out of reach.

I firmly believe we are still on an upwards trajectory, while some on here stick rigidly to their pre season predictions of doom and gloom that we would finish below the scum and even outside of the top 5.

City won the treble last season, have won the league for 5 of the last 6 seasons ( I think ) and here we are pushing them all the way again for the second season running.

[Stuart L (2)]

Nominated for manager of the month for March

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3948 ... AG1Rv576Hn

You know you want to

Or do you think Ange mate should get it ?

[the playing mantis]

Nominated for manager of the month for March

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3948 ... AG1Rv576Hn

You know you want to

Or do you think Ange mate should get it ?

Couple on here do

Joking

How the fck can that fat lump be up for it a undeserveved struggle at home against luton, thrashing by Fulham that should have been 6.

The league is crap.

That's the caveat with our 3rd as I and Steve have said. Needs to be a good 3rd as 3rd I itself is default for me in this season given the state of the 'big 6' A in reality average villa, and scum who are meant to be rebuilding under the new footballing messiah as our closest chasers. Anything less would be unthinkable.

I'm delighted we are competing currently and hopefully back to the force of old, but would if we were trailing villa or scum and 4th what would you think then viv?

For me that would be seriously underperforming.

[Viv Andersons Tache]

Nominated for manager of the month for March

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3948 ... AG1Rv576Hn

You know you want to

Or do you think Ange mate should get it ?

That's the caveat with our 3rd as I and Steve have said. Needs to be a good 3rd as 3rd I itself is default for me in this season given the state of the 'big 6' A in reality average villa, and scum who are meant to be rebuilding under the new footballing messiah as our closest chasers. Anything less would be unthinkable.

I'm delighted we are competing currently and hopefully back to the force of old, but would if we were trailing villa or scum and 4th what would you think then viv?

For me that would be seriously underperforming.

Is the league crap or are we good? Some fans find it very hard to admit the latter. We are a good team in truth. Any top 4 finish could hardly be considered underperforming given the mess we have been for a decade let’s be real. If we were in uniteds position yes absolutely.

Like I said previously if Bayern smash us and we drop to 3rd losing several of our remaining games I would have a feeling of disappointment really. I think I would categorise it as progress but couldn’t really class it as a success to be proud off. That said I wouldn’t be throwing myself off a bridge or writing a divvy list of questions to try and convince people the manager had failed.

[SteveO 35]

We ended last season with 84 points, and were a shambles in both domestic cups and Europe (again)

This season we would only need to take another 16 from a possible 24 to level our league total from last season and we are in a CL QF - so barring a total collapse, it looks like progress to me. Last season we took 11 points from a possible 24 in our last 8 games and put very simply, that will determine whether we have progressed or not. We threw away the 2 goal lead at Anfield, did the same at West Ham and from there we got stuffed by City, lost to Brighton and Forest and drew with relegated Southampton at home. We did bottle it. We couldn't cope with the loss of Saliba (Holding at City FFS) and the team showed the same mental fragility as it did under Wenger at the key moment of the season time and time again. Overcoming those mental scars has to be the next step and sign of progress. We didn't get pasted at City. We haven't lost Saliba to injury. We haven't got Rob Holding to blame. We haven't got Clubfoot to blame - we replaced him with the best player in his position bar none and he's been incredible. Practically everyone is back to fitness - even the long term crocks Partey, Tomiyasu, Smith Rowe, Jesus etc......Timber almost back. If we bottle it this time and blow up by getting something like 11 points, there can be absolutely no excuses. Most of our competitors have injury ravaged teams compared to us

So, again, if we win every game (or close to it) but simply can't stop Liverpool winning all their remaining games.....even if we came 3rd but only 3-4 points off the title with 90 odd points.....that really isn't failure. Its a very good team, who have progressed but simply couldn't quite match someone even better.

Do what we did last season in those last 8 games, and then finish 3rd but a dozen points adrift, before the traditional end of season swatting of Everton when all the pressure is gone, and I'll be the first to say that he hasn't changed the Wenger losers/mentally weak mindset. Its an absolutely crucial month in determining which it is to be, and it isn't just as simple as if we win the league or not

[the playing mantis]

Nominated for manager of the month for March

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3948 ... AG1Rv576Hn

You know you want to

Or do you think Ange mate should get it ?

That's the caveat with our 3rd as I and Steve have said. Needs to be a good 3rd as 3rd I itself is default for me in this season given the state of the 'big 6' A in reality average villa, and scum who are meant to be rebuilding under the new footballing messiah as our closest chasers. Anything less would be unthinkable.

I'm delighted we are competing currently and hopefully back to the force of old, but would if we were trailing villa or scum and 4th what would you think then viv?

For me that would be seriously underperforming.

Is the league crap or are we good? Some fans find it very hard to admit the latter. We are a good team in truth. Any top 4 finish could hardly be considered underperforming given the mess we have been for a decade let’s be real. If we were in uniteds position yes absolutely.

Like I said previously if Bayern smash us and we drop to 3rd losing several of our remaining games I would have a feeling of disappointment really. I think I would categorise it as progress but couldn’t really class it as a success to be proud off. That said I wouldn’t be throwing myself off a bridge or writing a divvy list of questions to try and convince people the manager had failed.

We are a decent team nonone denying it but simply ignoring other factors at play is moronic and one eyed.

scum are meant to be rebuilding after a disaster yet are comfortably top 5. Villa are a modest side yet are comfortable top 5. United are awful as are chavs.

Yes we were ina mess but he's had 4 season to fix it now. So thats no excuse.so to state any top 4 finish is a good given the state of flux of our supposed peers is bllx and you know it. We're we behind modtable villa, a lucky scum team rebuilding or basket case united that would suggest we a re equally poor. So simply top 4 is not a barometer of success.

You tell me if that indicates the league is so good.

Bayern are not much this season either.

There are those on here who see no good and those who want to anoint him the next GG it's barmy on both sides! Those lovers won't accept any criticism or concerns bigger picture and those haters won't the other way.

[A11M11]

Bayern are not much this season either.

Just because Leverkusen are so good , unbeaten in 27 games doesn't mean that Bayern are rubbish.

[the playing mantis]

Bayern are not much this season either.

Just because Leverkusen are so good , unbeaten in 27 games doesn't mean that Bayern are rubbish.

Again don't misrepresent. No one said rubbish. But there nit the superpower they were and are not in the best form.

[wilson2.0]

without a doubt the long-term Arsenal manager. Its undeniable now.