Thatcher urged to "abandon Liverpool"

[Rugby Gooner]

Sorry,I didn't realise that all these Tory supporting Bankers,(including the four Tory party donors who just got their New Year honours),who fucked our country,along with the rest of the Western world,(as well as their own banks),meaning that WE,the tax payer had to bail them out with Billions of pounds of our money,are in fact Socialists!!!
I haven't had a pay rise for two years because of these *word censored*!!!

By the way,I agree that the benefit system is being totally abused by lazy *word censored* who should be made to work,and stop having kids that WE pay for,but that does not make the principle of a system that supports the most vunerable members of society a bad thing.
Getting out of the EU at the earliest opportunity also needs to be a priority!!!

[frankbutcher]

Sorry,I didn't realise that all these Tory supporting Bankers,(including the four Tory party doners who just got their New Year honours),who fucked our country,along with the rest of the Western world,(as well as their own banks),meaning that WE,the tax payer had to bail them out with Billions of pounds of our money,are in fact Socialists!!!
I haven't had a pay rise for two years because of these c**ts!!!

By the way,I agree that the benefit system is being totally abused by lazy c**ts who should be made to work,and stop having kids that WE pay for,but that does not make the principal of a system that supports the most vunerable members of society a bad thing.
Getting out of the EU at the earliest opportunity also needs to be a priority!!!

I think you'll find that the reason for the Banking crisis was the loony Left. Quite simply, Labour were using taxes from Banking profits. to pay for the burgeoning welfare state. The welfare state is in itself a massive bribe of the working class to vote Labour. Only when the Banking system went bust did Labour start bleating about it. Only sing when they're winning.

[Rugby Gooner]

Sorry,I didn't realise that all these Tory supporting Bankers,(including the four Tory party doners who just got their New Year honours),who fucked our country,along with the rest of the Western world,(as well as their own banks),meaning that WE,the tax payer had to bail them out with Billions of pounds of our money,are in fact Socialists!!!
I haven't had a pay rise for two years because of these c**ts!!!

By the way,I agree that the benefit system is being totally abused by lazy c**ts who should be made to work,and stop having kids that WE pay for,but that does not make the principal of a system that supports the most vunerable members of society a bad thing.
Getting out of the EU at the earliest opportunity also needs to be a priority!!!

I think you'll find that the reason for the Banking crisis was the loony Left. Quite simply, Labour were using taxes from Banking profits. to pay for the burgeoning welfare state. The welfare state is in itself a massive bribe of the working class to vote Labour. Only when the Banking system went bust did Labour start bleating about it. Only sing when they're winning.

I agree about the Looney Left mate,and the abuse of the benefit system,but the Financial sector is also responsible for the problems due to the reckless throwing about of unsustainable credit,and giving people mortgages that they had no chance of servicing,(cue Kingjayson)!!!

[Never Outgunned]

Thatcher did a lot of good for the country. Took difficult decisions when they needed to be made. Those slagging her off are the exact Lefty scum that are presently bringing this country to it's knees.

c**ts the lot of you.

I think you'll find most esteemed economic opinion believe her dogmatic free market economics are what has brought the country to it's knee - albeit continued by a once left wing party

[Never Outgunned]

Thatcher fucking started the de-construction of this Country into rich and poor,began the dismantling of the "socialist" ethos of the Welfare State,by selling off Council Housing,introducing the fucking Poll Tax,and creating the unemployment that CAUSED the rioting in the first place!!!

Bollocks.

There have always been rich people and there have always been poor people. Even in communism there are those who are more priviliged than others.

Poor people who perceive themselves to have less rights rioting? It's nothing new: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants'_Revolt

Yes but the gulf between the two excelerated during 1979-90 and continued ever since.

There was much less of an underclass in 1979 and unemployment was 1.4 million and considered excessively high by post-war standards. In 2012 that figure looks incredibly low.

Thatcher never 'got Britain working', she normalised 2 million plus unemployed.

[Never Outgunned]

began the dismantling of the "socialist" ethos of the Welfare State

Considering what a weight around this country's neck the welfare state continues to be to this day, i hate to think where we would be had she not "dismantled" it.

The post-war socialists have destroyed this country. Managing decline? The socialist political class has been doing that on a national scale for 60 years.

Thatcher didnt go far enough

A socialist political class? Sorry which parties are 'socialist' in 2012? Not Labour, they ditched that with Blair in 1994, you haven't seen a Socialist government worthy of the name in the UK since about 1970. Even Labour in 1974-79 had to follow 'Thatcherite' economics because the IMF forced it on them.

Britain under a proper Socialist government hasn't had unemployment over 1 million and so not significantly high enough to be the drain on the resources that it is today.

Unemployment is a boon to a Tory government as they bat for the interest of those who hold capital. The employment market, like all markets need a surplus - that's where the unemployed come into it and why unemployment is always higher under a Tory government.

And of course unemployment benefits are there and will be there as without it the nation would descend into the kind of barbarism you saw in August on a regular basis.

And by the way - you make the reference to how 'Socialism' had destroyed the country for the last 60 years - pardon me, but were we the land of milk and honey until 60 years ago? I think you need to look up pre-war austerity and the 30s and the general strike of the 20s. The working man of the pre-war era would have given his right bollock for the 'misery' his post-war descendents 'endured'.

[Never Outgunned]

Frank Flash LDB bang on. This country is a failed version of a Scandinavian state, thanks to the limp wristed socialist Labour cuntrags.

The Scandanavians have a standard of living Thatcher and her descendents have never got near.

[Never Outgunned]

I think you'll find that the reason for the Banking crisis was the loony Left. Quite simply, Labour were using taxes from Banking profits. to pay for the burgeoning welfare state. The welfare state is in itself a massive bribe of the working class to vote Labour. Only when the Banking system went bust did Labour start bleating about it. Only sing when they're winning.

I think you'll find the Banking sector was the only significant industry left, seeing that Thatcher destroyed all other significant industry during the 80s - caused by the excessively high value of the pound to suit the financial sector.

If the Welfare State burgeoned in the years since it's because Thatcher normalised 2 million plus unemployed.

As for living off the taxes of the banking industry - like most of the top 1% of the country the banking sector looks to pay as little as it can in the way of taxes. Bit like Tottenham Hotspur's banker owner spending as much of his time in Bermuda as possible to pay as little tax as possible, yet begging for a tax payer handout to make his company more profitable.

The banking industry is responsible for 88% of our deficit - not the working class, the underclass, the public sector, the unemployed or any other scapegoat the tories or the right wing press want to throw in our direction.

[LDB]

began the dismantling of the "socialist" ethos of the Welfare State

Considering what a weight around this country's neck the welfare state continues to be to this day, i hate to think where we would be had she not "dismantled" it.

The post-war socialists have destroyed this country. Managing decline? The socialist political class has been doing that on a national scale for 60 years.

Thatcher didnt go far enough

A socialist political class? Sorry which parties are 'socialist' in 2012? Not Labour, they ditched that with Blair in 1994, you haven't seen a Socialist government worthy of the name in the UK since about 1970. Even Labour in 1974-79 had to follow 'Thatcherite' economics because the IMF forced it on them.

Britain under a proper Socialist government hasn't had unemployment over 1 million and so not significantly high enough to be the drain on the resources that it is today.

Unemployment is a boon to a Tory government as they bat for the interest of those who hold capital. The employment market, like all markets need a surplus - that's where the unemployed come into it and why unemployment is always higher under a Tory government.

And of course unemployment benefits are there and will be there as without it the nation would descend into the kind of barbarism you saw in August on a regular basis.

And by the way - you make the reference to how 'Socialism' had destroyed the country for the last 60 years - pardon me, but were we the land of milk and honey until 60 years ago? I think you need to look up pre-war austerity and the 30s and the general strike of the 20s. The working man of the pre-war era would have given his right bollock for the 'misery' his post-war descendents 'endured'.

They're not marketed as socialist but massive expansion and loosening of credit lines so that banking profits could be used to bloat the public sector and feather the labour electoral nest was socialist. That Labour became some second tory party is the cleverest political deception this country has ever seen.

Your last paragraph misses the point i was trying to make entirely. I know standards of living have (up till now) done pretty much nothing but rise and rise. Im talking about the way the politicians have gradually pissed away our relative global competitiveness within the capitalist system and have accepted our decline. Dont be fooled into thinking that because our economy has been "growing" that we are not in decline, we've been in relative decline as an economy since the war.

One of my lecturers who was the most left wing bloke I've ever met recognised that Britain has been declining since the war and i would say its not because we've embraced too much capitalism.

[LDB]

The banking industry is responsible for 88% of our deficit - not the working class, the underclass, the public sector, the unemployed or any other scapegoat the tories or the right wing press want to throw in our direction.

Partially right but its a great fallcy of the left that "the bankers" are the only ones to be blamed for the banking crisis. The central banks and the politicians who took the conscious decision to expand credit are at least equally (i would say more) to blame. Including but not limited to Alan Greenspan, Bill Clinton, Gordon Brown and George Bush.

We can argue about the motives behind this decision all day, i would say that Brown was looking to use the revenues from an economic boom in this country to feather the public sector (who vote for him) but its really not important anymore. What is important is the simple fact that the boom of the noughties was largely engineered by politicians. Afterall, its great to be a politician during a boom.

Put a shit load of money infront of banks and they will lend it. Blame the *word censored* who put it there.

[Never Outgunned]

They're not marketed as socialist but massive expansion and loosening of credit lines so that banking profits could be used to bloat the public sector and feather the labour electoral nest was socialist. That Labour became some second tory party is the cleverest political deception this country has ever seen.

Feathering Labour's electoral nest? Oh my aching sides! A cliche ridden observation if ever there was one. From working within the public sector I've seen no clear electoral bias toward the Labour party that you speak of - I met as many working class Tories as I did Labour voters.

Same with this welfare receipiants voting Labour through bribery rubbish - most of those living off benefits don't even vote.

Plus you could equally say selling off council houses and making people home owners is bribing people to vote Tory. And equally responsible for cheap credit and casino capitalism - people earning just £11,000 per annum were actively encouraged to buy their own home to purchase this myth of becoming middle class FFS!

And what deception involved in making Labour the second Tory party? They were quite upfront about being the New Tories from the very off. It never fooled anyone into thinking they were left of centre - they actually won in 2001 with less votes than they lost in 1979 and 1992 when they claimed they were socialist. As well as losing over half of their membership to boot.

Your last paragraph misses the point i was trying to make entirely. I know standards of living have (up till now) done pretty much nothing but rise and rise. Im talking about the way the politicians have gradually pissed away our relative global competitiveness within the capitalist system and have accepted our decline. Dont be fooled into thinking that because our economy has been "growing" that we are not in decline, we've been in relative decline as an economy since the war.

One of my lecturers who was the most left wing bloke I've ever met recognised that Britain has been declining since the war and i would say its not because we've embraced too much capitalism.

Well lets have a good look at who are burgeoning economies - China, India, Brazil.

Big countries with big, relatively poor populations. Their rise has not come from the ingenuity of inviting things like an ipod or a laptop or whatever, it comes from providing the cheap labour to build it. Workers working stupidly long hours in dangerous conditions not seen since the early industrial era here in Britain.

So the future of competing with these nations is to strip the living standards of the West - remove work place safety, remove limits on the number of hours per week people work, remove union laws, remove welfare payments for those slung on the scrap head by capitalism, remove minimum wages.

In fact, the capitalist system needs it more than we do as a National economy. The Chinese, the Indians and the Brazilians will only work with those conditions for so long before doing what we did and what the Arabs are currently doing now - actively rounding to fight it and abolish exploiting workers.

So the capitalist system has to act now - attack the basis of the post-war settlement, attack western living standards, attack Western employment regulations, attack western workplace health and safety standards.

It's called a race to the bottom and capitalism can't live without it.

So pardon me, but I really couldn't give two shits about a relative decline in Britain's power. It means nothing if I have to work like some sort of Victorian prole as a result.

Don't be fooled into bollocks about a 'national' interest - the interests of a Duke of Westminster, a Richard Branson or a Lord Ashcroft are not my interests - they never have been and they never will be.

[Never Outgunned]

Partially right but its a great fallcy of the left that "the bankers" are the only ones to be blamed for the banking crisis. The central banks and the politicians who took the conscious decision to expand credit are at least equally (i would say more) to blame. Including but not limited to Alan Greenspan, Bill Clinton, Gordon Brown and George Bush.

Right - but when a political class that bends over backwards for the banking sector for 30 years, including former bankers and parties overwhelmingly funded by the City such as the incumbent Tory government you're not exactly absolved from blame.

[frankbutcher]

Never Outgunnned - Do you vote Labour?

[Never Outgunned]

Never Outgunnned - Do you vote Labour?

I don't positively vote 'for' anything, under our electoral system of first past the post that isn't possible. Even if you wanted to vote for something it depends on whether they field a candidate in your area.

I've only ever voted to keep Tories out, that's involved voting for a 'New' Labour party I don't like on three occasions even though I don't actively want them and their Neo-Toryism anywhere near government.

The last election in the seat I lived in at the time I had the following choice:

1) The Tories
2) An independent bitter ex-Tory who's more right wing than the Tories
3) A Labour Party that have been more Tory than Labour and had no chance of winning a safe Tory seat
4) The BNP

In the end I voted for the Liberal Democrats - posturing as more left wing than Labour, but who of course, delivered a Tory government on a plate.

Democracy? Fucking Shamocracy more like!

[frankbutcher]

Never Outgunnned - Do you vote Labour?

I don't positively vote 'for' anything, under our electoral system of first past the post that isn't possible. Even if you wanted to vote for something it depends on whether they field a candidate in your area.

I've only ever voted to keep Tories out, that's involved voting for a 'New' Labour party I don't like on three occasions even though I don't actively want them and their Neo-Toryism anywhere near government.

The last election in the seat I lived in at the time I had the following choice:

1) The Tories
2) An independent bitter ex-Tory who's more right wing than the Tories
3) A Labour Party that have been more Tory than Labour and had no chance of winning a safe Tory seat
4) The BNP

In the end I voted for the Liberal Democrats - posturing as more left wing than Labour, but who of course, delivered a Tory government on a plate.

Democracy? Fucking Shamocracy more like!

So you vote for your own interest then.... (Like we all do.) Your employment relies on a bloated public sector. Therefore you vote for the party that guarantees that you will stay employed.

I'd get off your high horse.