Thatcher urged to "abandon Liverpool"

[Never Outgunned]

So you vote for your own interest then.... (Like we all do.) Your employment relies on a bloated public sector. Therefore you vote for the party that guarantees that you will stay employed.

I'd get off your high horse.

My employment and my continued employment doesn't rely on the public sector, bloated or otherwise.

I haven't worked within the public sector since 2007. I left because, contrary to popular belief, the pay was shite and I was only on a 12 month fixed term contract - as opposed to this so-called bonanza of pay and a job for life that the tabloids want to portray it as. Among other things, the building was crumbling and rat infested and little things taken for granted in private sector jobs like free teas and coffee and a xmas party was non-existent.

As for voting for my own self-interest, fair enough. What I don't vote for is someone's interest purporting to be my own via the right wing press. As quoted direct from a Tory Party grandee in Chavs by Owen Jones: '‘What you have to realize about the Conservative Party is that it is a coalition of privileged interests. Its main purpose is to defend that privilege. And the way it wins elections is by giving just enough to just enough other peopleâ€

[frankbutcher]

This all started with a discussion about Thatcher. She privatised a number of industries that simply weren't economically viable in a nationalised model. I agree that it may appear that she bribed a generation with right-to-buy, but i would argue that this was merely part of an ethos of empowerment of the masses. She taught people that hard work produced results. I don't expect you to agree with me on that point.

Labour nowadays have bloated the public sector. Literally millions of non-jobs are unviable. I am certainly not tarring the entire public sector with the same brush. Where did I say that? Unemployment is high, but what is the alternative...? The whole country will go bust if we don't cut back on a public sector that is (in parts) not viable and a welfare system that is raping the country.

To summarise, the truth is as always half-way between our respective stand-points. But the one thing that you can guarantee about politics is that both the Tories and Labour are as bad as each other, and everything they do is done to keep them in power. For Tories going easy on the Banking industry, see Labour pandering to the Trade Unions.

Thanks you and good night.

[Never Outgunned]

This all started with a discussion about Thatcher. She privatised a number of industries that simply weren't economically viable in a nationalised model.

There were a few, such as the railways, that were not economically viable in a free market model either.

In terms of many of the Nationalised utilities, over two decades on we get a far worse deal than many of our European counterparts when it comes to energy bills - so you cannot say that the British taxpayer/consumer has benefitted from privatisation either.

With the spiralling cost of heating bills in the years since we have more excess deaths in the winter than any other European nation, including Siberia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1754561.stm

Another nationalised industry she privatised and destroyed was that of the Coal industry, simply for political reasons as there are still a third of a millenium's worth of the stuff unmined within the UK. Our power stations now run off of Oil from the Middle East - increasing our reliance on such a politically sensitive part of the world, as well as the fact that it costs us more to do so than it previously did when utilising our own coal reserves.

I agree that it may appear that she bribed a generation with right-to-buy, but i would argue that this was merely part of an ethos of empowerment of the masses.

The majority of people in the poorest 10% of the country actually own their own houses, so it's hardly a sign of empowerment that people seem to think it is.

The fetish for owning one's house is also a peculiarly British one. Most European countries, such as the Germans, are far less bothered about owning their own homes. Do we have a higher standard of living than the Germans and thus empowered as a result? Hardly.

She taught people that hard work produced results.

Unemployment was 1.4 Million when she came into office in May 1979, it has not been as low as that since and the figures have been changed numerous times to make the figure appear lower than it actually is. At some parts of her reign the jobless figure was as high as 4 million.

Her administration also originated the trick of shovelling many of the long term unemployed onto incapacity benefit where they were previously claiming unemployment benefit. She normalised the employment figure of being in excess of 2 million, so how can 'hard work' be a considered a virtue extolled by the Thatcher years?

The 1980s also saw the post war decade in which Britain produced its lowest economic output, so where does the phrase 'produced results' come into it?

Labour nowadays have bloated the public sector. Literally millions of non-jobs are unviable.

Surely most of today's economically unviable non-jobs would exist in the Banking sector - purely because without public funds and if left purely to market forces the entire industry would have gone to the wall.

The whole country will go bust if we don't cut back on a public sector that is (in parts) not viable and a welfare system that is raping the country.

Here are the figures in black and white

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ed-picture

Note how the figure post-bailing out the banking sector from 2007 onwards is more than quadruple the figure by 2010. Note also that Labour had four years of a budget surplus until 2001, which coincidently is also the year we decided to invade foreign countries in the name of securing access to oil reserves.

This overwhelmingly shows that, far from caused by a 'bloated' public sector, the current financial detritus is overwhelmingly caused by using public finances to look after private sector interests and clear up private sector failings.

But the one thing that you can guarantee about politics is that both the Tories and Labour are as bad as each other, and everything they do is done to keep them in power. For Tories going easy on the Banking industry, see Labour pandering to the Trade Unions. Thanks you and good night.

Labour pandering to the Trade Unions? Sorry don't recall much in the way of industrial action taken by the Unions during 1997-2010. Certainly not in comparison to the 70s and 80s, so where have Labour pandered to the Trade Unions? [/quote]

[frankbutcher]

This all started with a discussion about Thatcher. She privatised a number of industries that simply weren't economically viable in a nationalised model.

There were a few, such as the railways, that were not economically viable in a free market model either.

In terms of many of the Nationalised utilities, over two decades on we get a far worse deal than many of our European counterparts when it comes to energy bills - so you cannot say that the British taxpayer/consumer has benefitted from privatisation either.

With the spiralling cost of heating bills in the years since we have more excess deaths in the winter than any other European nation, including Siberia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1754561.stm

Another nationalised industry she privatised and destroyed was that of the Coal industry, simply for political reasons as there are still a third of a millenium's worth of the stuff unmined within the UK. Our power stations now run off of Oil from the Middle East - increasing our reliance on such a politically sensitive part of the world, as well as the fact that it costs us more to do so than it previously did when utilising our own coal reserves.

I agree that it may appear that she bribed a generation with right-to-buy, but i would argue that this was merely part of an ethos of empowerment of the masses.

The majority of people in the poorest 10% of the country actually own their own houses, so it's hardly a sign of empowerment that people seem to think it is.

The fetish for owning one's house is also a peculiarly British one. Most European countries, such as the Germans, are far less bothered about owning their own homes. Do we have a higher standard of living than the Germans and thus empowered as a result? Hardly.

She taught people that hard work produced results.

Unemployment was 1.4 Million when she came into office in May 1979, it has not been as low as that since and the figures have been changed numerous times to make the figure appear lower than it actually is. At some parts of her reign the jobless figure was as high as 4 million.

Her administration also originated the trick of shovelling many of the long term unemployed onto incapacity benefit where they were previously claiming unemployment benefit. She normalised the employment figure of being in excess of 2 million, so how can 'hard work' be a considered a virtue extolled by the Thatcher years?

The 1980s also saw the post war decade in which Britain produced its lowest economic output, so where does the phrase 'produced results' come into it?

Labour nowadays have bloated the public sector. Literally millions of non-jobs are unviable.

Surely most of today's economically unviable non-jobs would exist in the Banking sector - purely because without public funds and if left purely to market forces the entire industry would have gone to the wall.

The whole country will go bust if we don't cut back on a public sector that is (in parts) not viable and a welfare system that is raping the country.

Here are the figures in black and white

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ed-picture

Note how the figure post-bailing out the banking sector from 2007 onwards is more than quadruple the figure by 2010. Note also that Labour had four years of a budget surplus until 2001, which coincidently is also the year we decided to invade foreign countries in the name of securing access to oil reserves.

This overwhelmingly shows that, far from caused by a 'bloated' public sector, the current financial detritus is overwhelmingly caused by using public finances to look after private sector interests and clear up private sector failings.

But the one thing that you can guarantee about politics is that both the Tories and Labour are as bad as each other, and everything they do is done to keep them in power. For Tories going easy on the Banking industry, see Labour pandering to the Trade Unions. Thanks you and good night.

Labour pandering to the Trade Unions? Sorry don't recall much in the way of industrial action taken by the Unions during 1997-2010. Certainly not in comparison to the 70s and 80s, so where have Labour pandered to the Trade Unions?

[/quote]

You sound like a politician yourself.... What are you? A lawyer...
Your point about Unions shows what a plonker you are. The real question is what action did Labour not take for fear of the Unions? Gold-plated pensions have been left un-touched for fear of a backlash. Only the coalition has the bollocks to tackle that issue. Why would the Unions strike when Labour was increasing the size of the public sector by a couple of million? You're a clown mate.

[storrmin571]

My pension is 11% why should I have to pay an extra 3-4% per year and work till I'm 70. Shove the Con Dems

[OneBardGooner]

Thatcher sold off the water, gas and electricity - and the the Tories made HUGE profits from the sell off's - the profits were used to empower their position further....who got wage increases when every other fucker was trying to hold onto their jobs thr police and the army - it was one of the first thing dshe did - to keep them sweet, (btw: I have no problem with the Police getting a better than avaerage wage as they (mostly) do a job I wouldn't and coouldn't do), but did she give a rise to the nurses, the firemen, the ambulance crews...did she bollocks. AND who bought up all the shares...it was your average working class joe...no it was all the knobs in the upper classes who had money to burn and the means to line their ever burgeoning pockets.....


THATCHER IS A SLAG

Ever since 1963 when the Miners brought down Ted Heath and the Tory govt when the country had to revert to a 3 day week, they had been looking for the chance to "Destroy and Vanquish" the mining industry...again it was one of the first things she did...I had three Good, GOOD friends who were Miners - Young fella's in thier late 20's they worked hard and were decent people...(Two married with families one single) They all:

Lost their jobs
Then their homes
Then the two married one's lost their families

One ended up committing suicide,one ended up doing time for his part in 'Picketting' - he fought back when he and a friend were stopped and had the crap kicked out of themn by SPG types... looking for anyone going to a picket line.....mind you it as only because that Slag Thatcher had rushed through new laws allowing Stop and Search - which they later used against anyone and everyone - I got stopped on two occasions once when travelling to a festival - where we were going to set up a tent to collect signatures for a petition against 'stop and search' and raffle some Miners Lamps to raise funds for the miners families - they confiscated the lamps and all the literature, later I we got the same treatment on our way to a demo in London - The latter time I got beaten up for asking why? were we being stopped?

THATCHER IS A SLAG.

[frankbutcher]

My pension is 11% why should I have to pay an extra 3-4% per year and work till I'm 70. Shove the Con Dems

Quite simply paying in 11% should not entitle you to the type of pension that you expect. There is a multi-billion gap between public sector pension contributions and liabilities. Why should I and the rest of the country pay for this difference?

[storrmin571]

OBG best post ever, it's a bit of a shocker to go up to the Rhondda Valley, Merthyr etc to see the state of the place now, communities made by mining lying in a state of ruin. These towns where everyone was employed down the pit or connections to the pit now everyone is hooked on disability pay sick pay and using the needle.

She's got a lot to answer for.

[Never Outgunned]

Thatcher sold off the water, gas and electricity - and the the Tories made HUGE profits from the sell off's - the profits were used to empower their position further....who got wage increases when every other fucker was trying to hold onto their jobs thr police and the army - it was one of the first thing dshe did - to keep them sweet, (btw: I have no problem with the Police getting a better than avaerage wage as they (mostly) do a job I wouldn't and coouldn't do), but did she give a rise to the nurses, the firemen, the ambulance crews...did she bollocks. AND who bought up all the shares...it was your average working class joe...no it was all the knobs in the upper classes who had money to burn and the means to line their ever burgeoning pockets.....


THATCHER IS A SLAG

Ever since 1963 when the Miners brought down Ted Heath and the Tory govt when the country had to revert to a 3 day week, they had been looking for the chance to "Destroy and Vanquish" the mining industry...again it was one of the first things she did...I had three Good, GOOD friends who were Miners - Young fella's in thier late 20's they worked hard and were decent people...(Two married with families one single) They all:

Lost their jobs
Then their homes
Then the two married one's lost their families

One ended up committing suicide,one ended up doing time for his part in 'Picketting' - he fought back when he and a friend were stopped and had the crap kicked out of themn by SPG types... looking for anyone going to a picket line.....mind you it as only because that Slag Thatcher had rushed through new laws allowing Stop and Search - which they later used against anyone and everyone - I got stopped on two occasions once when travelling to a festival - where we were going to set up a tent to collect signatures for a petition against 'stop and search' and raffle some Miners Lamps to raise funds for the miners families - they confiscated the lamps and all the literature, later I we got the same treatment on our way to a demo in London - The latter time I got beaten up for asking why? were we being stopped?

THATCHER IS A SLAG.

The destruction of the Miners in 1984 was vengence for the toppling of Edward Heath's government in 1974, not 1963.

Here's in interesting interview on the night of that election and the Beeb interviewer's thinly veiled contempt for the Miners.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBWrmB9Ry_8

Other than that I concur with your superb post sir - in fact that communities destroyed by the closure of the mines are a depressing picture of run down communities blighted by drug addiction and social problems. Something to remember when people talk about Thatcher getting Britain working and rewarding hard work (and if you want to know what hard work is ask a coal miner).

[Never Outgunned]

This all started with a discussion about Thatcher. She privatised a number of industries that simply weren't economically viable in a nationalised model.

There were a few, such as the railways, that were not economically viable in a free market model either.

In terms of many of the Nationalised utilities, over two decades on we get a far worse deal than many of our European counterparts when it comes to energy bills - so you cannot say that the British taxpayer/consumer has benefitted from privatisation either.

With the spiralling cost of heating bills in the years since we have more excess deaths in the winter than any other European nation, including Siberia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1754561.stm

Another nationalised industry she privatised and destroyed was that of the Coal industry, simply for political reasons as there are still a third of a millenium's worth of the stuff unmined within the UK. Our power stations now run off of Oil from the Middle East - increasing our reliance on such a politically sensitive part of the world, as well as the fact that it costs us more to do so than it previously did when utilising our own coal reserves.

I agree that it may appear that she bribed a generation with right-to-buy, but i would argue that this was merely part of an ethos of empowerment of the masses.

The majority of people in the poorest 10% of the country actually own their own houses, so it's hardly a sign of empowerment that people seem to think it is.

The fetish for owning one's house is also a peculiarly British one. Most European countries, such as the Germans, are far less bothered about owning their own homes. Do we have a higher standard of living than the Germans and thus empowered as a result? Hardly.

She taught people that hard work produced results.

Unemployment was 1.4 Million when she came into office in May 1979, it has not been as low as that since and the figures have been changed numerous times to make the figure appear lower than it actually is. At some parts of her reign the jobless figure was as high as 4 million.

Her administration also originated the trick of shovelling many of the long term unemployed onto incapacity benefit where they were previously claiming unemployment benefit. She normalised the employment figure of being in excess of 2 million, so how can 'hard work' be a considered a virtue extolled by the Thatcher years?

The 1980s also saw the post war decade in which Britain produced its lowest economic output, so where does the phrase 'produced results' come into it?

Labour nowadays have bloated the public sector. Literally millions of non-jobs are unviable.

Surely most of today's economically unviable non-jobs would exist in the Banking sector - purely because without public funds and if left purely to market forces the entire industry would have gone to the wall.

The whole country will go bust if we don't cut back on a public sector that is (in parts) not viable and a welfare system that is raping the country.

Here are the figures in black and white

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... ed-picture

Note how the figure post-bailing out the banking sector from 2007 onwards is more than quadruple the figure by 2010. Note also that Labour had four years of a budget surplus until 2001, which coincidently is also the year we decided to invade foreign countries in the name of securing access to oil reserves.

This overwhelmingly shows that, far from caused by a 'bloated' public sector, the current financial detritus is overwhelmingly caused by using public finances to look after private sector interests and clear up private sector failings.

But the one thing that you can guarantee about politics is that both the Tories and Labour are as bad as each other, and everything they do is done to keep them in power. For Tories going easy on the Banking industry, see Labour pandering to the Trade Unions. Thanks you and good night.

Labour pandering to the Trade Unions? Sorry don't recall much in the way of industrial action taken by the Unions during 1997-2010. Certainly not in comparison to the 70s and 80s, so where have Labour pandered to the Trade Unions?

You sound like a politician yourself.... What are you? A lawyer...
Your point about Unions shows what a plonker you are. The real question is what action did Labour not take for fear of the Unions? Gold-plated pensions have been left un-touched for fear of a backlash. Only the coalition has the bollocks to tackle that issue. Why would the Unions strike when Labour was increasing the size of the public sector by a couple of million? You're a clown mate. [/quote]

I can see from your replies you are being very selective in what points you want to tackle and ultimately dodging the biggie

The one that stands out like a sore thumb - 88% of our deficit is caused bailing out banks

Deficit pre-Northern Rock = £30.7 Billion (actually quite low by international and historical standards)

Deficit post-bail outs in 2010 = £152.3 Billion

Trying to throw the spotlight on public sector workers is a just a desperate attempt to deflect attention and criticism - it's trying to throw sand in people's eyes.

The private sector has overwhelmingly caused this crisis - not the public sector. And the Banking sector - more than any other part of the private sector - is attributable for this crisis.

[LDB]

OBG best post ever, it's a bit of a shocker to go up to the Rhondda Valley, Merthyr etc to see the state of the place now, communities made by mining lying in a state of ruin. These towns where everyone was employed down the pit or connections to the pit now everyone is hooked on disability pay sick pay and using the needle.

She's got a lot to answer for.

There are towns all over the world that become abandoned when economies restructure and evolve. The only difference is that in this country we shove them all on the welfare scrapheap rather then encouraging them to move where the work is. Keeps them voting Labour, the party that undoubtedly has their best interests at heart

Icing on the cake is that we then encourage mass immigration to plug the holes in the labour market that should be filled by our own people. Labour does not give a fuck about the working class, keep them poor and in shitty provincal towns and prevent them joining the aspirational classes (who vote tory). Immigrants tend to vote Labour too. Win, win, win.

Should also add that the labour party is not only to blame for this, people get the government and policies they deserve. I remember a massive furore from the chattering classes a few years back when a leading tory (i forget who) suggested people get on their bikes to look for work.

[Nos89]

Thatcher fucking started the de-construction of this Country into rich and poor,began the dismantling of the "socialist" ethos of the Welfare State,by selling off Council Housing,introducing the fucking Poll Tax,and creating the unemployment that CAUSED the rioting in the first place!!!
She sent young people to die for a frozen pile of Penguin shit in the South Atlantic to win an Election,broke the NUM to destroy the rights of Working Class People,and sucked Reag
ans' cock to get Cruise missiles on our soil,and allowed the c**t Pinochet to take refuge from justice in OUR Land!!!
She also nicked free milk from our Kids!!!
Her Right,(pardon the pun),hand men,Tebbit and Britton,also played the race card every chance they got,in a "smoke and mirrors"ploy to divert the masses from challenging the real "Enemy Within",(which is what she called The Miners),ie THEMSELVES!!!
Fuck the Bitch!!!

Capitalism or Socialism?? This Franky is not for moving.

Well, currently I would say we are an capitalist economy stuck in an socialist state. The rest can be said for most of europe. Italy, greece and UK have people in power that were not voted in by its population. Having lived in liverpool for last 8 years. Only the money from being euorpean city of culture in 2008 has seen regeneration of the city centre. The rest is still run down and I wouldn't say it's been a controlled declined.

[the playing mantis]

o dear. why is it that the akb's are also the liberal left wingers. not really a surprise is it.

never outgunned comes across as a very intelligent person at least in terms of believing his own left wing rhetoric and the mark steelesques version of history, perhaps too intelligent to be on here spouting off when they should perhaps be doign something about it if they are so vehemently against it, even though they have vested interests.

anyway coal wasnt an economical industry anymore, energy resources could be bought in cheaper than the extraction costs. simple as that. now potentially this extraction/import cost trade off has changed but thats another point entirely, one for the eco loons to argue over...i assume you have teh expected opinion on that too never outgunned

[Never Outgunned]

o dear. why is it that the akb's are also the liberal left wingers. not really a surprise is it.

Sorry, who are are the Liberal Left wingers (although you can no more be Liberal and Left Wing than you can be playing Centre Back and Full Back at the same time) and the so-called AKB's who are one and the same?

never outgunned comes across as a very intelligent person at least in terms of believing his own left wing rhetoric and the mark steelesques version of history, perhaps too intelligent to be on here spouting off when they should perhaps be doign something about it if they are so vehemently against it

Seeing that you don't know me from Adam and after the odd post on here, with another 23 and a half hours are left of the day, how the hell do you know that I don't and am not 'doing something about it'?

[OneBardGooner]

o dear. why is it that the akb's are also the liberal left wingers. not really a surprise is it.

never outgunned comes across as a very intelligent person at least in terms of believing his own left wing rhetoric and the mark steelesques version of history, perhaps too intelligent to be on here spouting off when they should perhaps be doign something about it if they are so vehemently against it, even though they have vested interests.

anyway coal wasnt an economical industry anymore, energy resources could be bought in cheaper than the extraction costs. simple as that. now potentially this extraction/import cost trade off has changed but thats another point entirely, one for the eco loons to argue over...i assume you have teh expected opinion on that too never outgunned

But the imported coal then - and now - were far inferior in quality to that mined on our own country..and that is FACT.