Poppy/McLean thread

[Cockerill's chin]

I know this is off on a tangent DB10 but it shows how powerful language can be. Does your story of the young catholic mother relate to Jean McConville? If it does then this poor lady was abducted from her home in 72. The claim that she was murdered for helping a squaddie is doubtful. The only shooting of a squaddie in her area happened a couple of weeks after she was taken. She was accused of being an informant, many think wrongfully. Dreadful times. Have I got the person and situation right or am I off the mark?

Back to the poppy issue, I get offended when Celtic fans hold up a banner or when fundamentalists greet the returned dead with obscenities. Refusing to wear the poppy is a right I can't get angry or judgemental about. Earning money here while having Republican views is not hypocritical but wearing the poppy while holding those views would have been. There is an emotional pressure being attached to the poppy that is becoming uncomfortable if refusing to wear one can generate such discussion. Support the troops is almost becoming to mean support the war. If those two ever become indistinguishable then I couldn't wear the poppy either. Does that mean I should earn my living in pacifist Sweden or risk being a hypocrite?

[LDB]

As I posted seconds before g88ner waded in to ruin Herd's day, there is a massive difference between not wearing a poppy and refusing to wear one. I donate to the rbl every year but dont take the poppy because I'm always losing it within 5 minutes.

Anyone thinking British patriotism (not that its even about patriotism mind) is shoved in people's faces should try and live in pretty much any other country in the world. Our traditions are dying by the day and all we're asking is that people within the country show some basic respect once a year to our war dead. What would the 'freedom of choice' brigade say if McLean had used his freedom to shout and dance during the two minutes silence? Same principle surely?

Nobody is asked to drape themselves in the union jack and sing god save the queen. Just show basic respect.

[Cockerill's chin]

If you think dancing and shouting during the silence is the same as refusing to wear a poppy then I find that completely bizarre. Why does defending one culturally acceptable choice mean culturally unacceptable choices must be defended?? Like I said, those fundamentalists who greeted the dead troops with obscenities should have faced legal repercussions.

Who have their boundaries blurred LDB? You who can equate refusing a poppy with the choice to dance out the silence or those who you label the choice brigade for not condemning a man for refusing to wear it?

[LDB]

If you think dancing and shouting during the silence is the same as refusing to wear a poppy then I find that completely bizarre. Why does defending one culturally acceptable choice mean culturally unacceptable choices must be defended?? Like I said, those fundamentalists who greeted the dead troops with obscenities should have faced legal repercussions.

Who have their boundaries blurred LDB? You who can equate refusing a poppy with the choice to dance out the silence or those who you label the choice brigade for not condemning a man for refusing to wear it?

I think its the same principle. If you're free from rebuke for refusing one form of respect then why not another? When you single yourself out as the only man in 22 refusing a symbol of rememberance then you're disrespecting the entire process by making it all about you. I work in a school with a Christian tradition, I have no time for religion personally but I still bow my head and am respectful during prayers because it's not about me.

The problem with poppy's is not people trying to force them on others, its the people trying to turn it into another twitter issue that they can bore us all with their opinions on. You don't have to wear one but don't be needlessly provocative in refusing one, either. It's all about circumstance, I've never had any issues from not wearing a poppy but can see why people find McLean disrespectful.

[Herd]

oops

[Herd]

[quote="Herd"]Its a football thread so why move it ?
Moving on its a freedom of choice thing and why should anyone wear one if they don't want to.
Again I collect for the legion and I always wear one but I don't see any problem with people who do not wish to.

I have every sympathy with anyone who has died fighting in any wars only in the last few years the Poppy has been cynically manipulated by the media into implied support for the illegal and immoral wars we wage abroad and the good old British public are buying into this crap.

I also think that those who lead these witch hunts against people are denying the very freedoms that the dead have supposedly sacrificed their lives for .
I further think that if some of these so called patriots who have never served yet cover themselves in tattoos proclaiming their patriotism really cared then they would expend more energy in stopping the slaughter rather than harassing people who don't wear one.
Wars do not show us who was right only who is left , and the very notion that Jesus or a soldier died for my sins or for my freedom is an insult to any right thinking mans intelligence.

[DB10GOONER]

I know this is off on a tangent DB10 but it shows how powerful language can be. Does your story of the young catholic mother relate to Jean McConville? If it does then this poor lady was abducted from her home in 72. The claim that she was murdered for helping a squaddie is doubtful. The only shooting of a squaddie in her area happened a couple of weeks after she was taken. She was accused of being an informant, many think wrongfully. Dreadful times. Have I got the person and situation right or am I off the mark?

Yeah. The IRA have run a disinformation campaign surrounding this case since day one, and the RUC have tried to cover their own failings (not even logging the missing persons report). Her neighbours and children claimed to have witnessed her aiding the wounded soldier, but I read that it was months before her abduction, not around the same time, which seems to have confused the issue. The IRA also spread a rumour that she had run off with a British soldier to isolate her family. She was beaten and tortured, had many of her bones broken and her hands mutilated before they shot her in the back of the head. Absolute scum.

[goonersid]

I think the elephant in the room here might be he felt his family back in Derry might be "safer" if he refused to wear it. I say "might be" as I don't know that for sure, obviously. But I would put nothing past those scumbag IRA crunts, including threatening and indeed killing the very people they talk about "representing" and "defending". These are the people that murdered a young Catholic mother for offering a moment's comfort to a young dying British soldier, little more than a boy, she just held him in her arms as he lay dying, calling for his mother. The IRA murdered her and buried her in an unmarked grave. Fucking animals. There are similar stories concerning the equally fucking disgusting murdering bastards in the UVF too.

As to the issue in hand? I think it is anyone's right to refuse to wear a poppy just as it is anyone's right to wear it. No one should be forced or bullied into wearing it.

But I also think that McClean should have shown some respect for the country he earns his living in and worn it like many Oirish celebs and sportsmen living in Engerland did. If he is that set against it because of some perceived "Britishness" or association with Bloody Sunday then he really should fly home and earn his living in NI or the Republic. I think it's a bit rich of him to earn (relatively) huge money over there but refuse to make a simple gesture like respecting the dead of that country (even though the poppy I believe is used to represent ALL war dead - am I right in that?).

Life is much like brazilianGOONER (waaaaay too short ), we need to learn from the past, learn to live with each other and respect each other's traditions if we want to move on from the carnage and violence and tragedy of this island's last 800 years.

Peace, motherfuckers.

Cracking post, pretty much agree with all of it. If McClean felt that his family might not be safe if he wore the shirt then fair enough but tbh I've seen and heard enough from him to think he's just a daft, bigoted kid, as you say many other Irish lads wear the poppies (including others from Londonderry/ Derry) without repercussions. He's free to decide not to wear it and I'm sure he had his reasons but equally I feel that myself and others should be free to say fuck his reasons and feel that it was an act which, intentionally or otherwise, disrespected the British (and Irish) war dead and that therefore we want him out of our club.

As for the poppy representing all war dead (not just British), I think it does but the poppy appeal itself only raises funds to spend on members/ ex members of the British Armed Forces so I could understand someone thinking that it is pretty much a British Army thing. Anyway, its just a shame that yet again a footballer has to do something to have us talking about something other than football. Its actually getting boring by now, every week there's another "scandal" to discuss, I wish they'd all just get back to playing football for once.

What a fucking ignorant fucking "geordie" twat you are, and on what basis is Mc Clean a bigot? because he didn't want to play for Northern Ireland, and their sectarian supporters? who showed their true colours by making death threats against him when he chose to play for Ireland.
Surely you are the fucking daft bigot, that you now want a player out of "your" club because of his political beliefs, yet you finish your post by claiming you wish they could all get back to playing football.
You sound to me like a half witted fucking BNP moron.
And I'm surprised that any Irish Poster on here can't see through you.

[safcftm]

What a fucking ignorant fucking "geordie" twat you are, and on what basis is Mc Clean a bigot? because he didn't want to play for Northern Ireland, and their sectarian supporters? who showed their true colours by making death threats against him when he chose to play for Ireland.
Surely you are the fucking daft bigot, that you now want a player out of "your" club because of his political beliefs, yet you finish your post by claiming you wish they could all get back to playing football.
You sound to me like a half witted fucking BNP moron.
And I'm surprised that any Irish Poster on here can't see through you.

He's a bigot because he can't move on and leave the past in the past. All he's done is start wankers on both sides giving it the anti-Irish/ anti-English bollocks and he seems to revel in being the centre of attention/ cause of controversy. I don't give a fuck what team he wants to represent, that's entirely up to him, I couldn't care less. And aye, some did show their true colours by making death threats but then there's wankers on all sides of the debate, he hates the British Army for killing people in a shameful atrocity on Bloody Sunday (and he's perfectly entitled to feel like that) but then plenty more of "his people" have been killed by the IRA, its about time everyone accepted there's a load of blame all around but that its best left in the past rather than dragging it up and causing ill feeling.

I don't want McClean out for his political beliefs, there is every chance that we've had plenty of other Irish players/ managers over the years who have had similar beliefs (in fact I know we have) and I've been a big fan of several of them (for example, Andy Reid has a daughter named Saoirse which as you'll know means "freedom" in the Irish language and I loved him, Reidy was mint, his political opinions don't matter to me one bit), I want McClean out for being stupid enough to disrespect a lot of the people who pay his wages. Instead of trying to bring attention to himself he should have just worn the shirt, remembered the Irish war dead and moved on, instead of which he had to be the only person in the league to make it a talking point while playing for a club based in a city which has the biggest remembrance day gathering outside of London. Wrong place to make his childish, immature "stand".

Its a bit of a disgrace to suggest that I'm a BNP supporting bigot by the way. The reason the other Irish posters can't "see through me" is because there's fuck all to see through, I'm not pro-BNP in the slightest (in fact I fucking hate the *word censored*), I'm not anti-Irish in the slightest, I'm not protestant and hell, done properly I'm not even against the idea of a united Ireland. McClean is free to think what he wants, he can support the idea of a united Ireland and he can hate the British Army all he wants, hell he can dress up as a dominatrix and dance about his house singing the fields of athenry for all I care, but he shouldn't have slapped a lot of people who have relatives in the forces and who have lost relatives in the various wars over the years in the face. He is entitled to his beliefs but for the disrespect he has shown I want him gone. I'm not going to be abusing him on twitter, if I see him in Sunderland I won't shout obscenities at him, he's entitled to his choice not to wear the shirt and I'm entitled to quietly, peacefully hope it's the last Sunderland shirt he ever pulls on

[DB10GOONER]

Lads, We can only keep this thread open if there is no more personal abuse. Please. Let's debate this like adults. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Sid - I don't dish out the warnings if I can avoid it, and am not going to here, but please lay off the personal abuse, mate.

Safcftm - I wouldn't read too much into Reid's choice of the name "Saoirse", it's a very common name in Oireland and alot of people don't know what it means tbh!

Anyballs, let's keep it respectful of each other, peeps!

[enjibenji]

again religion and politics is brought in to football

I have had to live with enough it through the years and am fucking sick of it all.

I dont give a fuck which religion/group/side(not including football teams in this obviousley ) you are from or support, just keep it the fuck away from football.

[flash gunner]

Lads, We can only keep this thread open if there is no more personal abuse. Please. Let's debate this like adults. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Sid - I don't dish out the warnings if I can avoid it, and am not going to here, but please lay off the personal abuse, mate.

Safcftm - I wouldn't read too much into Reid's choice of the name "Saoirse", it's a very common name in Oireland and alot of people don't know what it means tbh!

Anyballs, let's keep it respectful of each other, peeps!

No wonder g88ner deleted the orginal thread

erm.... i mean moved it and then made a mistake

[brazilianGOONER]

again religion and politics is brought in to football

I have had to live with enough it through the years and am fucking sick of it all.

I dont give a fuck which religion/group/side(not including football teams in this obviousley ) you are from or support, just keep it the fuck away from football.

couldn't agree more.

[DB10GOONER]

again religion and politics is brought in to football

I have had to live with enough it through the years and am fucking sick of it all.

I dont give a fuck which religion/group/side(not including football teams in this obviousley ) you are from or support, just keep it the fuck away from football.

couldn't agree more.

But what if someone brought Brazilian Dwarf Ladyboys into football?

[goonersid]

Lads, We can only keep this thread open if there is no more personal abuse. Please. Let's debate this like adults. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Sid - I don't dish out the warnings if I can avoid it, and am not going to here, but please lay off the personal abuse, mate.

Safcftm - I wouldn't read too much into Reid's choice of the name "Saoirse", it's a very common name in Oireland and alot of people don't know what it means tbh!

Anyballs, let's keep it respectful of each other, peeps!

Fair enough, sorry safcftm, but when you see one of your own getting slated, it's easy to lose the rag.
Now I know how Reb feels when we call Roy Keane a f****ing sheep shagging pikey b*****d, dirty fucking ridebag of a whores b*****d. Difference here though is we all know that to be true except Reb