The Gooner Forum

@Playing

I think us getting involved in such places has a little but not a lot to do with encouraging terrorist attacks here.
Sure, the tube bombers were protesting against British involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq, but they were fanatics looking for an excuse.
Sad to say but they were Jihadists who saw the world as a conflict of civilisation between what they regard as a decadent West, and their version of Islam.

Even if the UK withdrew from every other country, they would find the excuse to attack the West on "moral" grounds and using past historical involvement as an excuse.
They would not rest until their interpretation of Islam takes over the world.

There are some Shi'ites whose world view is framed by a belief in a 12th Imam, a Messianic figure who may or may not arrive in an apocalyptic war...and so they do not fear war in the way others do, for them it is "rational" to want to usher in a war of civilizations.

There have been Jihadist attacks in the Phillipines, Thailand, Bali, Argentina, Bulgaria etc....but I do not recall any of those countries playing a huge role in Afghanistan or Iraq fighting?

Jihadist ideology and wars of conquest have spread since the 7th century, long before there was even a modern nation state of England with English troops exported overseas to fight in Islamic countries.

QuartzGooner wrote: Even if the UK withdrew from every other country, they would find the excuse to attack the West on "moral" grounds and using past historical involvement as an excuse.
They would not rest until their interpretation of Islam takes over the world.

..would they though? what if they are attacking us for the very reasons they say....because we're there. I just dont see what good can come of this.... and why WE need to be the ones "fixing" all the problems.

dPmunky wrote:

QuartzGooner wrote: Even if the UK withdrew from every other country, they would find the excuse to attack the West on "moral" grounds and using past historical involvement as an excuse.
They would not rest until their interpretation of Islam takes over the world.

..would they though? what if they are attacking us for the very reasons they say....because we're there. I just dont see what good can come of this.... and why WE need to be the ones "fixing" all the problems.

Jihadists have launched wars of expansion long before this century, look at the conquest of the Middle East from the seventh century onwards.
The die were cast back with the Crusades, in terms of a clash of West vs East.

The 9/11 attacks were launched prior to the recent Afghan war, and the second gulf war.

My long post on the previous page outlines why the USA is involved.

dPmunky wrote:

QuartzGooner wrote: Even if the UK withdrew from every other country, they would find the excuse to attack the West on "moral" grounds and using past historical involvement as an excuse.
They would not rest until their interpretation of Islam takes over the world.

..would they though? what if they are attacking us for the very reasons they say....because we're there. I just dont see what good can come of this.... and why WE need to be the ones "fixing" all the problems.

You have to look at the minority Fundamentalist Islamic (not all Muslims though) mindset. They view the West as a culturally and spiritually decedant and evil place that must be conquered or destroyed. No matter what way the West conducts itself we will always be a target for the Jihadists.

so basically there will be jihadist attacks on us regardless? in that case what do we do

the playing mantis wrote:so basically there will be jihadist attacks on us regardless? in that case what do we do

Thank God (whichever one you believe in!) that they are in the minority of Muslims.

Wahhabi Islam for example is what Bin Ladin and many of the jihadists/terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan followed. They believe the only true Muslims are those who follow the teachings of al-Wahhab. All other “Muslims” are non-believers and infidels just like Jews and Christians. They are absolutely intolerant of other religions including other sects within their own religion. You cannot debate or negotiate with people that are that hardwired in their beliefs and that are willing to die for that belief. Add to that the very effective brain washing or "radicalisation" conducted by extremist jihadists and you are facing literally thousands and thousands of disenfranchised angry hateful violent religiously motivated people.

QuartzGooner wrote: The 9/11 attacks were launched prior to the recent Afghan war, and the second gulf war.

My long post on the previous page outlines why the USA is involved.

i guess my thoughts of us being "over there" were more along things like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat


I guess my point is, are the fundamentalist really a threat to us with their non existent standing armies/navies/air force etc. I'm just NOT afraid of ignorant cave dwellers from the 7th century. I also have a hard time believing ANY media outlets when it comes to reports on who's attacking who with "wmd." this looks to me a repeat of 2003 invasion of iraq with trumped up and even faked intelligence to get us on the ground. to me it just stinks!

and lets not forget, at least over here, we are governed by consent. WE...the people, CHOOSE, to go to war and at this point in time it seems support is overwhelmingly against.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/164282/suppo ... licts.aspx
http://www.people-press.org/2013/09/03/ ... irstrikes/

maybe im just an idealist when i think we should try to diplomatically solve these problems

President Assad is going to have his horoscope read shortly. My family live very close a bombing range in west wales and the air traffic around there has picked up in the last week or so, which it usually does before us or our allies turn big rocks into pebbles, i.e. desert storm Iraq 2 afghan Libya. Apparently there were some "evil" looking planes overhead this week. Black and v shaped.

Syria should have had it's president wiped out by now without a shadow of a doubt - easy for an Irishman to say that I know as our army is fcuking useless but the "superpowers" in the world have a duty to protect people like the innocents that were so viciously murdered last week. It makes my blood boil to see all these pc out protesting against a strike against Syria - they should be shipped out to Syria straight away to help the clean up and witness first hand the slaughter of these innocent people and then we will see if they are still opposed to striking back
Enough fcuking about already.....get in there and wipe those c***s out

@dpmunky

The West has blood on it's hands too.
Who is clean?
The West certainly got it's hands dirty in the Middle East going back into the 19th century.

But I think yes, the Jihadists are a threat.
They are not stuck with seventh century technology, they have sophisticated weaponry, and if they get their hands on chemical weapons it is no joke.
Surely we have to try and destroy those chemicals before Assad used them again or the Jihadists get them?
Even with basic weaponry they can make havoc....9/11 showed that.

I think the rush to get involved in Iraq in 2003 was in hindsight a mistake, though if Saddam sent his WMDs to Syria and we find them that may be seen in a different light?

But that war has now scared people off any military action in Syria...which is a different case.

I did hear an American general make a very good point this week on BBC Radio Five Live which was where else can we make a case for getting involved for moral reasons?

Look at the thousands killed and tortured in North Korean death camps...but very few call for a military strike on North Korea.
On thing though, the North Koreans are helping Iran with nuclear technology, in exchange for Iran helping them with missile technology, so again, I think that this Syrian conflict is part of that build up to a showdown with Iran.

playing devils advocate, and not taking oil/gas into account, couldnt a case be made that we should have supported the legitmate government, to quell a rebel/terrorist uprising? if these people hadnt rebelled, withe extremism fuelling the fires then none of this would be happening, would it?

i dont tknow, but i dont hink anyone else knows who has caused this and which side is doing what. damned if we do damned if we dont.

@Playing

I believe that current the anti-Assad movement began with non-violent civilian protests...then changed into, and was used by, international Jihadi elements, amongst other anti-Assad forces.

Assad was killing civilians to crush challenge to his rule.

Chilling speech from Obama.

"Assad, get rid of the chemicals or we attack".

QuartzGooner wrote:Chilling speech from Obama.

"Assad, get rid of the chemicals or we attack".

to quote Health Ledger's Joker: "And...here...we......go."

What is the purpose of the U.N. if nations are to take matters into their own hands? Have the U.N. found definitive proof that sarin was used? or are the yanks just saying it was. What does Syria have that the yanks want? why are the yanks so gung-ho about Syria, why weren't they in Rwanda years ago? cant trust the media, don't trust the yanks.
If you stick your nose in other peoples business, expect to get it boxed.