Israel/Gaza

[afcforever]

Seems quite odd to me that a number of these terrorists who willingly risk their lives for the opportunity to slaughter Israelis would happily divulge exact details of their biggest plan to do so under legal questioning.

They were interrogated.
The uniforms were found in the tunnels.


Spud and everyone else

I am not embarrassed nor ashamed to have written what I have.
Not in the slightest.
I write it is sad for children to die, but a clear result of the nature of the foe we fight, the nature of the environment we fight in.

This is war against an enemy who has a declared aim to kill every Jew worldwide.
My thinking is quite clearly far removed from the rest of the Forum, but then again none of you others who have posted on this thread are Jewish or Israeli, or if you are you have not said so.

Quartz I think you've explained things pretty well, all the best.

[OneBardGooner]

We are all Gooners on here - well, with the occasional exception, but that's another story.

The Cannonballs is for all strands of life that are not Arsenal/Football related...where we (Forum members) get to have a laugh, a bit of Non-football banter - jokes etcetera....I may have fallen out on the rare occasion with other Gooners - but this thread and those contributing to it are not going to change the minds or hearts of either faction,I think it is time to lock this thread and let those contributors chill out for a while...

I can just see this kicking off the longer it is allowed to stay open, we here are NOT going to bring Peace to Gaza, we all have our beliefs and opinions, but this (like the situation in Gaza) is out of control.

Please LOCK this Thread.

[Edit]

May Your God Go With You. (c/o Dave Allen)

[OneBardGooner]

Better still maybe I should just startposting these kind of piccies!?



Now THAT should keep any sane red blooded wotsit off here!

[Theoperator]

Ive enjoyed reading this thread TBH

Quartz has made good points, which many will disagree with as we just see the pictures on the news/ in newsprint.

Emotions run high, but nowadays especially The Media gets so easily whipped up by various sides its hard to see the woods for the trees.

The rocket attacks that seem to go on incessantly cant be pleasent to bear, even though fortunately most are bought down by good defence, the tunnels are an endless threat too. Yet the endless deprivation of basics, with the threat of entry by those well armed in comparison are a nasty contrast for the other side to bear, let alone the decades of intense hatred and conflict.

The tragedy is that the venom hatred and upset engendered by all of this will last for generations to come

[Yankee_Gooner_Dandee]

Ive enjoyed reading this thread TBH

Quartz has made good points, which many will disagree with as we just see the pictures on the news/ in newsprint.

Emotions run high, but nowadays especially The Media gets so easily whipped up by various sides its hard to see the woods for the trees.

The rocket attacks that seem to go on incessantly cant be pleasent to bear, even though fortunately most are bought down by good defence, the tunnels are an endless threat too. Yet the endless deprivation of basics, with the threat of entry by those well armed in comparison are a nasty contrast for the other side to bear, let alone the decades of intense hatred and conflict.

The tragedy is that the venom hatred and upset engendered by all of this will last for generations to come

uh hasnt it ALWAYS been this way since the begining of civilization?

here's a video to fill you in on the history of the "holy land." its in a nice simple cartoon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

[northbank123]

Seems quite odd to me that a number of these terrorists who willingly risk their lives for the opportunity to slaughter Israelis would happily divulge exact details of their biggest plan to do so under legal questioning.

They were interrogated.
The uniforms were found in the tunnels.

Wonder what "interrogation" techniques were deployed to elicit the sort of information giving rise to such detailed and confident predictions that you were referring to earlier?

To be honest I've stayed pretty uninvolved in this debate. People are understandably all so entrenched in their positions. I can't pretend I have a realistic grasp on what it would be like to live in a country facing the constant threat of missile attacks, etc., and the vast majority of Hamas' atrocities go unreported here. But equally Israel's response has been utterly disproportionate in areas, and although you acknowledge some fault briefly Quartz it seemed like you were paying token lip service to the line and it doesn't stack up with the other 99.5% of the views you've posted.

I think the whole 'killing of children is justified' comment was badly conveyed. Israel could and should be doing far far more to avoid civilian casualties, some are inevitable due to Hamas' human shield tactics but the current levels have been shocking and Israel's approach thus far simply is not justified. But are we going to pretend that there were no women or children amongst the 25,000 killed when the Allies flattened Dresden? I know the circumstances aren't exactly the same and the killing of anybody but children especially is abhorrent, but people should remember this.

There we go - basically straight down the middle so I'm sure I've pissed EVERYONE off. Realistically if there is a solution it's not a military one and it's certainly not going to be brought closer by more outbreaks of fighting.

[officepest]

I think the whole 'killing of children is justified' comment was badly conveyed. Israel could and should be doing far far more to avoid civilian casualties, some are inevitable due to Hamas' human shield tactics but the current levels have been shocking and Israel's approach thus far simply is not justified. But are we going to pretend that there were no women or children amongst the 25,000 killed when the Allies flattened Dresden? I know the circumstances aren't exactly the same and the killing of anybody but children especially is abhorrent, but people should remember this.

I feel this is safer ground for me to debate, apologies if this goes off-track.

With the benefit of hindsight then the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. In fact, one could argue that all heavy bombing raids of WWII were as soon as any pretence of hitting military targets was abandoned. Even worse was the fire-bombing of Tokyo.

At the time, mostly due to deliberately misleading statistical information regarding the effectiveness of heavy bombing, it was calculated that removing the historic city from the map would speed the war's end and thus save x amount of allied troops lives. Of course, this was complete bollocks, but the allies were not to know that there had been a mass exodus of civilians from the east fleeing from the Red Army. Modern intelligence should ensure that something like this should never happen again.

I think the major difference is that the Dresden (or Hamburg/Stuttgart etc.) raid needs to be seen through the prism of total war, in which both sides were willing and able to perpetuate such atrocities, something that is not applicable to the current discussion re Palestine.

History is, of course, written by the winners and if the axis had prevailed then I have no doubt that Churchill, FDR, Stalin, Harris, McNamara et al would have all been on the end of the noose instead.

[northbank123]

I think the whole 'killing of children is justified' comment was badly conveyed. Israel could and should be doing far far more to avoid civilian casualties, some are inevitable due to Hamas' human shield tactics but the current levels have been shocking and Israel's approach thus far simply is not justified. But are we going to pretend that there were no women or children amongst the 25,000 killed when the Allies flattened Dresden? I know the circumstances aren't exactly the same and the killing of anybody but children especially is abhorrent, but people should remember this.

I feel this is safer ground for me to debate, apologies if this goes off-track.

With the benefit of hindsight then the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. In fact, one could argue that all heavy bombing raids of WWII were as soon as any pretence of hitting military targets was abandoned. Even worse was the fire-bombing of Tokyo.

At the time, mostly due to deliberately misleading statistical information regarding the effectiveness of heavy bombing, it was calculated that removing the historic city from the map would speed the war's end and thus save x amount of allied troops lives. Of course, this was complete bollocks, but the allies were not to know that there had been a mass exodus of civilians from the east fleeing from the Red Army. Modern intelligence should ensure that something like this should never happen again.

I think the major difference is that the Dresden (or Hamburg/Stuttgart etc.) raid needs to be seen through the prism of total war, in which both sides were willing and able to perpetuate such atrocities, something that is not applicable to the current discussion re Palestine.

History is, of course, written by the winners and if the axis had prevailed then I have no doubt that Churchill, FDR, Stalin, Harris, McNamara et al would have all been on the end of the noose instead.

Look, I am reticent to get too involved in this because it's genuine not a topic for any reasonable debate because of the entrenchment of views. And I certainly don't want to be viewed as condoning the overall action of Israel, I am just playing Devil's Advocate.

How is that radically different from here? The sole purpose of Hamas' existence seems to be wiping Israel off the planet at any cost, they clearly have zero qualms about limiting civilian casualties with their rocket attacks and use their own civilians as human shields, knowing that there will inevitably be scores of women and children killed.

Obviously most of the arguments applicable to the action in WWII - that the bombings etc would bring the war to an end quicker and thus save more lives in the grand scheme of things - don't really apply here. Germany had a massive armed forces occupying huge territory, various allies and were putting millions of people to death in camps. Hamas obviously don't have anything like that sort of threat, and whilst abominable, the number of Israeli casualties are not comparable. What is quite obvious from Quartz's 'us or them' posts and most of what has been reported coming from Israeli politicians is that the lives of Palestinian casualties are viewed as worth exponentially less than Israeli lives.

[arseofacrow]

The events of WWII do not make for good comparisons here.

[g88ner]

I've read most of this thread, and I'm very surprised how one sided the debate has become.

There's a lot of condemnation (and I can understand it) but not many solutions. And Quartz shouldn't have to defend every individual civilian death - and highlighting his comment about children deaths being justified was naughty and sensationalist. We all knew what he meant.

Can I ask people - mainly Chippy and a few others who are strongly against the way Israel have dealt with this - how they believe Israel should handle being repeatedly attacked by a terrorist organisation who want to destroy every last one of them?

- How should they stop the missiles? (or should they simply let Hamas fire at will?)
- should basing themselves in a civilian area make Hamas untouchable and free to keep firing missiles? (or are Israel allowed to respond?)
- Should Israel attempt to destroy the tunnels? (or leave them alone knowing full well they're being used to bring in weapons?)

[Henry Norris 1913]

as far as I see it, Israel should not exist, and the sooner the west loses control over the "holy land" the better.

[QuartzGooner]

as far as I see it, Israel should not exist, and the sooner the west loses control over the "holy land" the better.

Why should Israel "Not exist?"

[Chippy]

G88ner, you are missing the point. For the last 20 years Israel has missed every opportunity for peace. Netanyahu is fairly close to being a fascist, and Quartz has pretty much admitted that the goal is Greater Israel and removing the Palestinians from their lands. A few articles from Jews who have a different view to Quartz and Netanyahu.

http://leelajacinto.blogs.france24.com/ ... ign=buffer

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/2 ... re-in-gaza

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/ ... -bad-name/

[afcforever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5Y-4qim6U

Chippy he seems to explain things very well

[Chippy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5Y-4qim6U

Chippy he seems to explain things very well

Are you serious? That bloke is a nutter. Sadly amongst many nutters in this debate. Again to be clear Hamas are a bunch of words we are not allowed to use here any more but the Israelis have gone from being the people that people like me would automatically support in the 70s to people I now despise as a bunch of delusional right wing nutters. Can we please stop the meme about Hamas using populated areas as a shield. Gaza is a very densely populated area, can you imagine if they announced they were building an army training camp in an isolated area...... Occupied people are allowed to defend themselves from the occupiers. The occupiers can never be the defenders.