The Gooner Forum

You're correct to remember the crowds and the push - shove nature of the time. That is what makes the exoneration of those that came in late unbelievable.

A11M11 wrote:You're correct to remember the crowds and the push - shove nature of the time. That is what makes the exoneration of those that came in late unbelievable.

Absolutely. That was just what used to happen - Liverpool might have been worse than most/the rest but had this tragedy happened at any ground to any club then fans steaming in late etc would have been a factor.

Fucking disgusting and hypocritical that they still do it every final. You can bet your bottom dollar that if they beat Villarreal there will be hundreds of Liverpool fans drunk, without tickets and trying to force their way in and mug fellow fans for tickets in Basel. Just like Athens, just like Istanbul.

Red Snapper wrote:One juror has sat through all those months of evidence only to be excused today for medical reasons. Only nine now.

I didn't know Diaby was on the jury.

flash gunner wrote:I hope they get the compensation they have been after and its the last time we hear about this.

Any football fan who went in the 80's knows the truth about Hillsborough and who's to blame

This outcome will simply give the scousers all the excuses they ever needed to just play the Victim even more.

Yes, it was a horrible tragedy - But what about what happened at Heysel....Nothing to do with the scousers Nooooo course not.

northbank123 wrote:

A11M11 wrote:You're correct to remember the crowds and the push - shove nature of the time. That is what makes the exoneration of those that came in late unbelievable.

Absolutely. That was just what used to happen - Liverpool might have been worse than most/the rest but had this tragedy happened at any ground to any club then fans steaming in late etc would have been a factor.

Fucking disgusting and hypocritical that they still do it every final. You can bet your bottom dollar that if they beat Villarreal there will be hundreds of Liverpool fans drunk, without tickets and trying to force their way in and mug fellow fans for tickets in Basel. Just like Athens, just like Istanbul.

If they get to the final, it'll be all moans and groans about the ground being too small, too few tickets, biggest fan base in the world, should have played it at a bigger venue, blah, blah, blah when 10,000 try and get in without tickets.

northbank123 wrote:

A11M11 wrote:You're correct to remember the crowds and the push - shove nature of the time. That is what makes the exoneration of those that came in late unbelievable.

Absolutely. That was just what used to happen - Liverpool might have been worse than most/the rest but had this tragedy happened at any ground to any club then fans steaming in late etc would have been a factor.

Fucking disgusting and hypocritical that they still do it every final. You can bet your bottom dollar that if they beat Villarreal there will be hundreds of Liverpool fans drunk, without tickets and trying to force their way in and mug fellow fans for tickets in Basel. Just like Athens, just like Istanbul.

They will get found out then. It was terrible! but i am sick of the victim tag, and the holier that though image they play on all the fucking time.

I know that blame is being apportioned to the authorities and stadium managers etc. but the FA seem to be getting off lightly here. At the time it was an FA rule that semi finals were played at neutral venues that were equipped with security fences. Consequently, they stopped using Highbury (not that this game would have been played there). No one would have died at Highbury given those circumstances. Standing on terraces didn't kill those people; locked fences did.

Highbury was used in 1984 for Everton v Southampton.. Was that the last pre Hillsborough time it was played there?

Bradywasking wrote:Highbury was used in 1984 for Everton v Southampton.. Was that the last pre Hillsborough time it was played there?

Probably. Wasn't there a pitch invasion? Or am I thinking of another one.

Red Snapper wrote:

Bradywasking wrote:Highbury was used in 1984 for Everton v Southampton.. Was that the last pre Hillsborough time it was played there?

Probably. Wasn't there a pitch invasion? Or am I thinking of another one.

Yes think Everton fans were on the North Bank, Adrian Heath I think scored the winner..

A11M11 wrote:You're correct to remember the crowds and the push - shove nature of the time. That is what makes the exoneration of those that came in late unbelievable.

That was a point I was confused with but the previous year would have been the same, yet disaster was diverted because it was policed better.
I've also agree that the FA are getting off lightly, they knew the ground wasn't fit for purpose yet still went ahead.
The final itself saw Liverpool supporters breaching the terraces and running into the pitch, which only underlined the reason why fences were put up in the first place. That gets overlooked.
But it was not about general behaviour, it was about that one dreadful day, and the blatant lies, and non action that could have saved 41 of those lives that was under investigation.
There was a pitch invasion in '84, Everton and Portsmouth they FA refused to use Highbury unless it had fences put up. Thankfully, Hill-Wood didn't allow that to happen.

Nos89 wrote:

A11M11 wrote:You're correct to remember the crowds and the push - shove nature of the time. That is what makes the exoneration of those that came in late unbelievable.

That was a point I was confused with but the previous year would have been the same, yet disaster was diverted because it was policed better.
I've also agree that the FA are getting off lightly, they knew the ground wasn't fit for purpose yet still went ahead.
The final itself saw Liverpool supporters breaching the terraces and running into the pitch, which only underlined the reason why fences were put up in the first place. That gets overlooked.
But it was not about general behaviour, it was about that one dreadful day, and the blatant lies, and non action that could have saved 41 of those lives that was under investigation.
There was a pitch invasion in '84, Everton and Portsmouth they FA refused to use Highbury unless it had fences put up. Thankfully, Hill-Wood didn't allow that to happen.

Nos everyone i think agrees it was a tragedy and to be honest most if not all those who died were not to blame for any of it but the above highlighted is wrong on so many levels, forget the shit policing, the really bad layout of the ground and all the other faults on the day, simply put if the fans outside had not behaved the way they did then the police would have retained control and quite simply the crush couldn't have happened.

Whitewashing the fans of any responsibility for their actions is as big a miscarriage of justice as all the coercion, lies, intimidation, false evidence that has happened at all the previous enquiries and is a sop to the families and others who have battled for the truth up until now. It basically makes it ok for any group to act the way that those fans did on that day at any other time without consequencies

I too find it hard to accept that the behaviour of fans outside did not contribute in any way to the tragedy inside. The decision to open the gates was surely influenced by action and mood outside.? I wasn't there obviously but cannot understand why s chief police officer would make the call if all was calm and orderly outside the stadium.
Obviously the call was the wrong one and the subsequent cover ups were dreadful. The horrible question I would ask is were the jury afraid to apportion any responsibility on any Liverpool fans? I'm not questioning their integrity but the emotion of the case and the publicity made any blame on the fans hard for the jury to reach.

GoonerMuzz wrote:

Nos89 wrote:

A11M11 wrote:You're correct to remember the crowds and the push - shove nature of the time. That is what makes the exoneration of those that came in late unbelievable.

That was a point I was confused with but the previous year would have been the same, yet disaster was diverted because it was policed better.
I've also agree that the FA are getting off lightly, they knew the ground wasn't fit for purpose yet still went ahead.
The final itself saw Liverpool supporters breaching the terraces and running into the pitch, which only underlined the reason why fences were put up in the first place. That gets overlooked.
But it was not about general behaviour, it was about that one dreadful day, and the blatant lies, and non action that could have saved 41 of those lives that was under investigation.
There was a pitch invasion in '84, Everton and Portsmouth they FA refused to use Highbury unless it had fences put up. Thankfully, Hill-Wood didn't allow that to happen.

Nos everyone i think agrees it was a tragedy and to be honest most if not all those who died were not to blame for any of it but the above highlighted is wrong on so many levels, forget the shit policing, the really bad layout of the ground and all the other faults on the day, simply put if the fans outside had not behaved the way they did then the police would have retained control and quite simply the crush couldn't have happened.

Whitewashing the fans of any responsibility for their actions is as big a miscarriage of justice as all the coercion, lies, intimidation, false evidence that has happened at all the previous enquiries and is a sop to the families and others who have battled for the truth up until now. It basically makes it ok for any group to act the way that those fans did on that day at any other time without consequencies

The jury were not unanimous with that decision but to give the unlawfully killed verdict, it would be difficult to apportion some of the blame to the behaviour of the supporters. How could they charge 2000 Liverpool fans with the unlawful killing of 96 people?
If the decision blamed supporters as well as the policing then all the lies would be justified.
For me watching the footage outside the stadium where there is this solitary policeman signalling and yelling for the people to go back, hes being ignored and verbally abused, then seeks sanctuary with a mounted policeman is just shocking. The establishment of the '80's is unravelling before our eyes.
I've also been watching clips from Heysal in 1985, that was a lot worse, and how only 39 people died there I'll never know? It quite easily could've been a couple of hundred.

Nos89 I think you hit the root of it there - it would have been unpalatable politically to the campaigners and media outlets to have acknowledged fans behaviour as a contributing factor and in realIty one that a jury would never have reached - in an inquest at least. And let's remember that it is a rather one-sided inquest and not a criminal trial.

One perspective of looking at the verdict that the fans behaviour wasn't a contributing factor is that it basically means that the tragedy would have happened regardless of whichever group of fans were at that end on that day.

There is a conflation of causation and culpability.