Mikel Arteta, success or failure? - Merged thread.

[nut flush gooner]

A question for Viv and Nutty. Come the end of this season, what will success look like in your opinion? What will the team need to achieve to warrant calling the season a success?

We finished last season 5 points behind City and 17 points ahead of Liverpool.

Last season we went out of the FA Cup in the 4th round and the EFL Cup in the 3rd round...first round for us (I think De Zerbi was managing Brighton ).

We then spent over 200 million in the summer....but didn't buy a striker. This, by the way, took Arteta's 4 year spend to 700 million, which makes nonsense of Viv's blaming funds for having dross on the bench.

This season we went out of the FA Cup in the 3rd round and the EFL Cup in the 4th round in an embarrassing performance against West Ham .
Under Arteta, exiting domestic cups almost immediately has become a habit.

Last season we went out of the Europa in the first knockout stage on penalties, this season we squeaked through the CL first knockout stage on penalties.

So, after spending over 200 million last summer, we've totally fucked up the domestic cups again, so it's all on the PL and CL. How far do we have to go in the CL and how will the final PL have to look for you to say it's been a success this season?

Ok I think the question is a good one so I’ll answer but first harping on about the 700 million. This is a joke. You do realise that between 2009 to 2019 city spent 1.5 billion on players and this was before the vast recent inflation whilst we had wenger running the club into the ground. They are now up on ffp because of this. Look at their bench at the weekend. There’s 250 million in players they signed on their subs bench! Give that to Arteta and he’ll get you a title, trying to suggest we’ve wasted money is absurd. Our major signings like white and Rice have worked out.

The question id say …

Lose at the Etihad and fall away to third in the league then go out of CL next round. I’d say you couldn’t class it as a success as it’s probably the baseline of achievement. It’s meh for me not punishable by death by any means as it points to us establishing regular champions league qualification 2 years in a row just full of what ifs.

A gallant 2nd by a short margin and a champions league semi final would qualify as a real success for me. Would show last season wasn’t a one off and that we are here to stay and made definitive progress in Europe with loads of prize money. Rebuild, chop wood and go again !

That said I fully believe from what I’m reading here that even if we actually won the title you would have people saying “‘bu bu bu but he signed Havertz!”

Anyway, the clear point I was making was that after a reasonably successful league campaign last season (I could forgive the collapse when viewed overall) and finishing 2nd, 17 points ahead of Liverpool, Arteta then spent in excess of 200 million in the summer. As such, no room for excuses if we end up below the scousers and we need to be a very close 2nd to City at worst.

In fairness, that's what you said re the league finish this season and I agree that a CL semi final would be a successful progression.

Regarding your comments about the EFL, considering we've won fuck all since 2020, don't you think it might be a start? You consider it beneath us, yet City, Liverpool and Chelsea (including when they were going well) all try to win it and actually do so. I see that with your usual selective approach, you don't mention the failures in the FA Cup....do you think we oughtn't bother with that either?

i was at the littlewood league cup final when we blew it v Luton in 88. i’ve always thought the competition is a load of bollocks and a distraction if i’m honest. The reason city have won it so many times recently is they have so much talent in reserve and can just chuck in the reserves and bash everyone anyway. Don’t think it helped getting 2 london sides away but i don’t care really as its a total distraction to the priorities .

FA Cup i do care about it’s an amazing day out, i reckon our 98 final v newcastle was one of the best days of my life. If i recall some bird properly put it on me after the game in a nightclub too. Honestly it was like fucking christmas mate, should have bought a lottery ticket that day. Anyway these are one off 90 minute knock out games and we just didn’t get a result on the day this year. irritating eh, but painting it as some sort of pattern with the manager is silly as he won it once already in 4 years and really European progression is the priority because of the money involved. Stick with the guy and there’s going to be lots of fun again.

Are you a politician by any chance? I see that you selectively ignored the fact that we’re ahead of the City spending curve that you highlighted.

Also, it isn’t the not City chasing and winning the EFL is it…I think Liverpool have won 2 of the last 3. It’s the least important of the competitions, but if we’re trading finals, I was at the league cup final in ‘87 (and the two you mention) which launched our good years under George. Winning is a habit. As for drawing London teams away being an excuse for losing, that’s really scraping the barrel when that team is West Ham. As for Brighton, when did they become a London club and we lost at home not away.

Take a look at the four years in both domestic cups since we won the FA Cup in 2020 and tell me again that there’s no pattern. That’s eight cup competitions where we haven’t got out the blocks. All well and good saying it’s Europe that’s important, but the big clubs with a winning mentality take all competitions seriously. The evidence proves it.

Don't ever ever ever fall for the mantra we have outspent City over the last 1,3, 5 or whatever years. I was invited to an AST meeting to discuss FFP with NicK Harris an investigative sports journo, and what got us to the stage where City have 115 charges pending.

Lets make this clear, between 2008 and 2015 (when we were paying off our stadium on much lower revenues) or just before Pep turned up City dropped the best part of a billion quid in the transfer market using every financial trick in the book to inflate their income ahead of what it really was. The most well known being a £90+m sponsorship with Etihad where City covered 90% of the cost of the sponsorship, they were able to do this because Etihad where also owned by Sheikh Mansour. So for me talking about Arsenal spending £200m last summer is a non discussion, there are clubs that have spent a lot more like Chelski and Manure, who are miles behind us.

And to answer the question what's an acceptable season, that we could all take heart from and that last season wasn't a one off, as Stuart has said, 2nd and a CL semi. I would even accept 3rd if we was less than 5 points behind the winners.

[Viv Andersons Tache]

Are you a politician by any chance? I see that you selectively ignored the fact that we’re ahead of the City spending curve that you highlighted.

If we were ahead we would be up on FFP charges too. If you are comparing our spending curve in the last 5 seasons to what they started in 2009 to 2019 haha .

have you ever heard of the concept of inflation. Please tell you me you aren’t an accountant.

As IW8 said, you really do have an answer for everything, regardless of how nonsensical bollocks it might be.

Inflation . So in 4 years Arteta spends 700 million, that’s between 2020 and 2024. That’s an average of 175 million per year. Based on your figures, which I haven’t checked, City have spent 1.5 billion in 11 years (2009-19 inclusive), which averages out at 136 million per year. If you genuinely think that inflation accounts for an additional 40 million per year (that’s an increase of 30% on City’s spend) then I hope you’ve had your money invested in whatever fund is showing that growth.

The bullshit will always find you out mate. Your opinions are more than welcome, but don’t treat posters on here as though they’re idiots.

Actually that correlates quite well. Have a butchers

All things being equal, the price of players during the last transfer window went up by 31% compared to the previous year. Since 2014, the annual inflation growth rate on the transfer market for big-5 league footballers has been 26%. With respect to 2011, the same player costs now almost three times more. More exclusive analysis is available in the 47th edition of the CIES Football Observatory

https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr47/en/

Based on that, we’re ahead of the curve. City’s spend didn’t stop in 2011 did it? Your figures for City extend to 2019 (again, I haven’t checked those figures).

Do the maths, we’re certainly not behind the curve are we?

Fancy comparing us to Liverpool since Klopp’s arrival? Even using your inflation figures, we’re way ahead of their spend. I think they’ve already won a trophy this season. Still, it was only the EFL….again.

Let’s continue this in May.

Ok well if you want to make this cleaner


Transfermarkt figures indicate that in the last decade, Chelsea and City have spent £1.82 billion and £1.5 billion respectively, while Arsenal has invested £1.04 billion. This points to an undeniable truth: while Arsenal’s spending has increased, it’s in response to the inflated market conditions set by the likes of City and Chelsea.

https://dailycannon.com/2023/05/arsenal ... eo-claims/

On Liverpool no you are quite right they are something quite different. Bought shrewdly, however they only ever wrestled one title off city during covid and have a significant rebuild on the horizon

[Retro Gunner]

If we were ahead we would be up on FFP charges too. If you are comparing our spending curve in the last 5 seasons to what they started in 2009 to 2019 haha .

have you ever heard of the concept of inflation. Please tell you me you aren’t an accountant.

As IW8 said, you really do have an answer for everything, regardless of how nonsensical bollocks it might be.

Inflation . So in 4 years Arteta spends 700 million, that’s between 2020 and 2024. That’s an average of 175 million per year. Based on your figures, which I haven’t checked, City have spent 1.5 billion in 11 years (2009-19 inclusive), which averages out at 136 million per year. If you genuinely think that inflation accounts for an additional 40 million per year (that’s an increase of 30% on City’s spend) then I hope you’ve had your money invested in whatever fund is showing that growth.

The bullshit will always find you out mate. Your opinions are more than welcome, but don’t treat posters on here as though they’re idiots.

Actually that correlates quite well. Have a butchers

All things being equal, the price of players during the last transfer window went up by 31% compared to the previous year. Since 2014, the annual inflation growth rate on the transfer market for big-5 league footballers has been 26%. With respect to 2011, the same player costs now almost three times more. More exclusive analysis is available in the 47th edition of the CIES Football Observatory

https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr47/en/

Based on that, we’re ahead of the curve. City’s spend didn’t stop in 2011 did it? Your figures for City extend to 2019 (again, I haven’t checked those figures).

Do the maths, we’re certainly not behind the curve are we?

Fancy comparing us to Liverpool since Klopp’s arrival? Even using your inflation figures, we’re way ahead of their spend. I think they’ve already won a trophy this season. Still, it was only the EFL….again.

Let’s continue this in May.

Ok well if you want to make this cleaner


Transfermarkt figures indicate that in the last decade, Chelsea and City have spent £1.82 billion and £1.5 billion respectively, while Arsenal has invested £1.04 billion. This points to an undeniable truth: while Arsenal’s spending has increased, it’s in response to the inflated market conditions set by the likes of City and Chelsea.

https://dailycannon.com/2023/05/arsenal ... eo-claims/

On Liverpool no you are quite right they are something quite different. Bought shrewdly, however they only ever wrestled one title off city during covid and have a significant rebuild on the horizon

You're doing it again, distraction tactics with disingenuous posts. We all know what City have spent and that player prices have increased, but the discussion wasn't about the last ten years, or City from 2009-2019. The discussion was about the money Arteta has spent. What you've inadvertently done with your post above is to highlight the financial muscle he's been given, because of the 1 billion you tell us that the Arsenal have spent in the last 10 years, 70% of it has been spent by Arteta in the last 4 years. Even allowing for the rise in player fees, that's no mean feat. I think we can agree that the owners have supported him financially and he has no excuses for failing to deliver. This is his team, he decided who to buy and he decides who plays. Nowhere to hide.

As for Liverpool, the little comment tossed in about only wresting one title from City is again disingenuous. They have been the only side since Leicester's title win to properly challenge City and to amass 98 points in a season and still lose out by one point is a success in my eyes. Klopp is in his 9th season as manager and has won the league, the FA Cup, two league cups and of course, the Champions League. Given the domestic domination by a pimped City and given the poor side he inherited, he's done well. Arteta is in his 5th season and has won an FA Cup back in 2020. Things have improved but he needs to show tangible results a bit sharpish.

Just a comment on your debate with IW8 about Nketiah. If Palace were offering 30 million, then we should have bitten their hand off. You're saying that he would need replacing, but if we'd added that 30 million to the 65 million wasted on Havertz, then we could have recruited a top striker, while still having Jesus on the books. We're playing Havertz as a "false" 9, or so it seems and they don't come much more fucking false. Had we sold Eddie and invested 90 odd million in a top quality striker rather than buying the German dud, we'd be in a far stronger position.

[OneBardGooner]

It's the same old shit really from the blinkered. If you don't agree that everything is wonderful and the current manager is amazing then you are somehow "disloyal" or just "negative". If you try and make an actual balanced comment like "its a good run we are on, nothing more yet" then you are just bring "negative".

Or ‘woke’ apparently.

All must be rosey in the Wengteta garden.


And before I get called a Spurs fan again ( ), I’m very much enjoying the good run we are on but I find it concerning that we’re still quite wasteful with the ball, at times, AND the absolute lack of depth in the squad. If the starting 11 doesn’t get the job done then turning to Reiss Nelson, Nketiah and Zinchenko is beyond worrying.

When you start whining like a Bitch about Ooooh! I'm Just Expressing My Opinions when called on your Negativity... And then try and get out of it when we win like one of those Radio4 Noncey Farts... then that's what looks and sound like "Woke" MF.


There's a difference between Constructive Criticism and Always Flopping About Like a Gay Limp Voiced Bitch Ooooh! We're Going to lose this Just because we aren't playing well.


Arsenal Till I Die!? aka: Mr Negative Woke from Frumpington.

One: It’s an internet forum about football, OBG. I can express my opinion freely (even if you don’t like it),,so long as I don’t attack other members (which seems to be a sticking point for you).

Two: You’ve been given a long leash on here for your of labelling people nonces or peados etc before, I’ve never agreed with it because it could lead to the forum getting in trouble. Do better.

Three: Throwing around homophobic slurs is a real good look, OBG. Ironically in the same sentence you discussed constructive criticism.

Four: Shakespeare couldn’t have written it better himself.

I can't help it if you're just one of those NegativeCUN.Ts.

[Arsenal Till I Die]

It's the same old shit really from the blinkered. If you don't agree that everything is wonderful and the current manager is amazing then you are somehow "disloyal" or just "negative". If you try and make an actual balanced comment like "its a good run we are on, nothing more yet" then you are just bring "negative".

Or ‘woke’ apparently.

All must be rosey in the Wengteta garden.


And before I get called a Spurs fan again ( ), I’m very much enjoying the good run we are on but I find it concerning that we’re still quite wasteful with the ball, at times, AND the absolute lack of depth in the squad. If the starting 11 doesn’t get the job done then turning to Reiss Nelson, Nketiah and Zinchenko is beyond worrying.

When you start whining like a Bitch about Ooooh! I'm Just Expressing My Opinions when called on your Negativity... And then try and get out of it when we win like one of those Radio4 Noncey Farts... then that's what looks and sound like "Woke" MF.


There's a difference between Constructive Criticism and Always Flopping About Like a Gay Limp Voiced Bitch Ooooh! We're Going to lose this Just because we aren't playing well.


Arsenal Till I Die!? aka: Mr Negative Woke from Frumpington.

One: It’s an internet forum about football, OBG. I can express my opinion freely (even if you don’t like it),,so long as I don’t attack other members (which seems to be a sticking point for you).

Two: You’ve been given a long leash on here for your of labelling people nonces or peados etc before, I’ve never agreed with it because it could lead to the forum getting in trouble. Do better.

Three: Throwing around homophobic slurs is a real good look, OBG. Ironically in the same sentence you discussed constructive criticism.

Four: Shakespeare couldn’t have written it better himself.

I can't help it if you're just one of those NegativeCUN.Ts.

So you can’t help reacting to my opinions in an abusive, childish and homophobic way?

You’re embarrassing yourself, man. Do better.

[Viv Andersons Tache]

As IW8 said, you really do have an answer for everything, regardless of how nonsensical bollocks it might be.

Inflation . So in 4 years Arteta spends 700 million, that’s between 2020 and 2024. That’s an average of 175 million per year. Based on your figures, which I haven’t checked, City have spent 1.5 billion in 11 years (2009-19 inclusive), which averages out at 136 million per year. If you genuinely think that inflation accounts for an additional 40 million per year (that’s an increase of 30% on City’s spend) then I hope you’ve had your money invested in whatever fund is showing that growth.

The bullshit will always find you out mate. Your opinions are more than welcome, but don’t treat posters on here as though they’re idiots.

Actually that correlates quite well. Have a butchers

All things being equal, the price of players during the last transfer window went up by 31% compared to the previous year. Since 2014, the annual inflation growth rate on the transfer market for big-5 league footballers has been 26%. With respect to 2011, the same player costs now almost three times more. More exclusive analysis is available in the 47th edition of the CIES Football Observatory

https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr47/en/

Based on that, we’re ahead of the curve. City’s spend didn’t stop in 2011 did it? Your figures for City extend to 2019 (again, I haven’t checked those figures).

Do the maths, we’re certainly not behind the curve are we?

Fancy comparing us to Liverpool since Klopp’s arrival? Even using your inflation figures, we’re way ahead of their spend. I think they’ve already won a trophy this season. Still, it was only the EFL….again.

Let’s continue this in May.

Ok well if you want to make this cleaner


Transfermarkt figures indicate that in the last decade, Chelsea and City have spent £1.82 billion and £1.5 billion respectively, while Arsenal has invested £1.04 billion. This points to an undeniable truth: while Arsenal’s spending has increased, it’s in response to the inflated market conditions set by the likes of City and Chelsea.

https://dailycannon.com/2023/05/arsenal ... eo-claims/

On Liverpool no you are quite right they are something quite different. Bought shrewdly, however they only ever wrestled one title off city during covid and have a significant rebuild on the horizon

Just a comment on your debate with IW8 about Nketiah. If Palace were offering 30 million, then we should have bitten their hand off. You're saying that he would need replacing, but if we'd added that 30 million to the 65 million wasted on Havertz, then we could have recruited a top striker, while still having Jesus on the books. We're playing Havertz as a "false" 9, or so it seems and they don't come much more fucking false. Had we sold Eddie and invested 90 odd million in a top quality striker rather than buying the German dud, we'd be in a far stronger position.

If you think he’s a dud fair enough it’s your opinion but it’s a minority opinion as our fans chant his name every week. He’s been a good signing. Fair enough question generally but it misses the fact we still would have needed to sign another midfielder, Jorginho is 31 and only suited to certain games we would still have needed another option as a Xhaka replacement. That’s the value Havertz brings as he provides cover for 3 positions and adds different options. Also there might not have been the type of striker we wanted available anyway unless you fancied pipping Chelsea to Nicholas Jackson

[Retro Gunner]

Actually that correlates quite well. Have a butchers

All things being equal, the price of players during the last transfer window went up by 31% compared to the previous year. Since 2014, the annual inflation growth rate on the transfer market for big-5 league footballers has been 26%. With respect to 2011, the same player costs now almost three times more. More exclusive analysis is available in the 47th edition of the CIES Football Observatory

https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr47/en/

Based on that, we’re ahead of the curve. City’s spend didn’t stop in 2011 did it? Your figures for City extend to 2019 (again, I haven’t checked those figures).

Do the maths, we’re certainly not behind the curve are we?

Fancy comparing us to Liverpool since Klopp’s arrival? Even using your inflation figures, we’re way ahead of their spend. I think they’ve already won a trophy this season. Still, it was only the EFL….again.

Let’s continue this in May.

Ok well if you want to make this cleaner


Transfermarkt figures indicate that in the last decade, Chelsea and City have spent £1.82 billion and £1.5 billion respectively, while Arsenal has invested £1.04 billion. This points to an undeniable truth: while Arsenal’s spending has increased, it’s in response to the inflated market conditions set by the likes of City and Chelsea.

https://dailycannon.com/2023/05/arsenal ... eo-claims/

On Liverpool no you are quite right they are something quite different. Bought shrewdly, however they only ever wrestled one title off city during covid and have a significant rebuild on the horizon

Just a comment on your debate with IW8 about Nketiah. If Palace were offering 30 million, then we should have bitten their hand off. You're saying that he would need replacing, but if we'd added that 30 million to the 65 million wasted on Havertz, then we could have recruited a top striker, while still having Jesus on the books. We're playing Havertz as a "false" 9, or so it seems and they don't come much more fucking false. Had we sold Eddie and invested 90 odd million in a top quality striker rather than buying the German dud, we'd be in a far stronger position.

If you think he’s a dud fair enough it’s your opinion but it’s a minority opinion as our fans chant his name every week. He’s been a good signing. Fair enough question generally but it misses the fact we still would have needed to sign another midfielder, Jorginho is 31 and only suited to certain games we would still have needed another option as a Xhaka replacement. That’s the value Havertz brings as he provides cover for 3 positions and adds different options. Also there might not have been the type of striker we wanted available anyway unless you fancied pipping Chelsea to Nicholas Jackson

I'm afraid that these days, being out of step with the majority of our fans is often a sign that you're right about something. I spent years knowing Wenger was washed up, but spent comfortably 10 years in that minority....a tiny minority back in 2007. I was anti Xhaka from the first 2 or 3 times I saw him, but 6 years later the fans in the stadium were singing his name. I got plenty of abuse on here for doubting Ramsdale, but how did that work out? I can remember mid 80s arguing with other Gooners that Paul Davis was a far better youngster than Stuart Robson, but that was a minority opinion at the time. Not being in step with what DB calls the "fan boys" has never bothered me, nor coloured my judgement.

So, I have no problems considering Havertz to be a dud and you ought to remember that many supporters will chant his name as a defence mechanism against rival supporters who are taking the piss. Do you know any Chelsea supporters that were upset to see the back of him? I don't and it should tell you a lot. So we've signed him as a replacement for the shambolic Xhaka eh? Well, he definitely fills that niche. You consider him a jack of all trades...striker and midfielder, although I'm not sure where you get 3 positions from, as Xhaka was a midfielder pushed further forward in his final season, but no way could Havertz play his former defensive midfield role. We needed a striker and a midfielder last summer and I said it many times on the transfer thread, but a quality striker was the main priority in my opinion. The advanced midfield role that Xhaka played could have gone to both Trossard or ESR, both of whom are a mile in front of Xhaka and Havertz, but it's this particular blind spot that means I can't shift the doubts over Arteta.

I said it on here the other day, but discussions about the quality of a player are always difficult when people throw up lines like "makes good runs", "holds the ball up well", "good in the air"...all lines by the way, that tend to be used for sub standard players whose footballing ability is lacking...even if those comments are total myths. However, you'll face the truth when Havertz properly fucks up and it costs us. We've already seen how he can't convert one on one chances and the mark of a quality goal scorer is scoring the goals that you're expected to score, not the ones where there's no blame if you don't convert. He'll cost us in front of goal and you'll be ruing the fact that we didn't sign a top striker.

[augie]

I simply refuse to believe that the majority of Gooners attending games sing havertz's name - if it is true then the drug squad needs to do a raid on the place pronto

[Retro Gunner]

I simply refuse to believe that the majority of Gooners attending games sing havertz's name - if it is true then the drug squad needs to do a raid on the place pronto

Sadly augie, there's plenty that do, although it's not a majority, its the youngsters and the tourist or parvenu type. As I said, a lot of that is because of the stick we got for signing him. It's brazening out the huge error, to make it seem we're all behind it. Mind you, some are, including Viv.

[wibble]

That was a lot of quote towers to get through!

I think another reason for keeping Eddie is that he’s a home grown player. Not that that excuses doubling his wages or whatever.

[mcdowell42]

That was a lot of quote towers to get through!

I think another reason for keeping Eddie is that he’s a home grown player. Not that that excuses doubling his wages or whatever.

If only lads could copy and paste the bit that is relevant to what they want to say ,rather than this endless quoting of every post on the thread

[Retro Gunner]

That was a lot of quote towers to get through!

I think another reason for keeping Eddie is that he’s a home grown player. Not that that excuses doubling his wages or whatever.

If only lads could copy and paste the bit that is relevant to what they want to say ,rather than this endless quoting of every post on the thread

Sorry Mc, I thought you like reading the whole thing again and again, just to ensure context.

[Viv Andersons Tache]

I simply refuse to believe that the majority of Gooners attending games sing havertz's name - if it is true then the drug squad needs to do a raid on the place pronto

Sadly augie, there's plenty that do, although it's not a majority, it’s the youngsters and the tourist or parvenu type.

Sorry this is not true mate, I go every week. When he scores the 60 million song rings out around the ground. Especially after that last gasp winner the other week.

It must eat away at your insides or something to suggest it isn’t happening

[Retro Gunner]

I simply refuse to believe that the majority of Gooners attending games sing havertz's name - if it is true then the drug squad needs to do a raid on the place pronto

Sadly augie, there's plenty that do, although it's not a majority, it’s the youngsters and the tourist or parvenu type.

Sorry this is not true mate, I go every week. When he scores the 60 million song rings out around the ground. Especially after that last gasp winner the other week.

It must eat away at your insides or something to suggest it isn’t happening

No mate, I genuinely don't give a fuck if they sing his name or not. Like I've said, I spent years listening to "One Arsesne Wenger", while the old fucker was destroying the club and then the younger crew singing Xhaka's name last season. If somebody could sing for Xhaka after 6 years of incompetence, then I can't take their opinions seriously.

You'll learn about Havertz, but it seems it will be the hard way. Then again, if you were one of those singing Xhaka's name, then maybe you don't learn, who knows?

[mcdowell42]

That was a lot of quote towers to get through!

I think another reason for keeping Eddie is that he’s a home grown player. Not that that excuses doubling his wages or whatever.

If only lads could copy and paste the bit that is relevant to what they want to say ,rather than this endless quoting of every post on the thread

Sorry Mc, I thought you like reading the whole thing again and again, just to ensure context. :lol:king

Retro ,am enjoying the thread alot,but the endless quote towers is just a fucking nightmare