Classless Chavs

[Robin_L]

All this collective patting yourselves on the back is great, but I've heard enough gas chamber impressions and all that hissing shit at away grounds (mainly London derbies) to know that we aren't exactly innocent.

[Herd]

Thats all correct mate, by the way hes now doing life......
Yes a few like him who defected to Chelsea on Political preference
But will say i always thought there was just disinterest and indifference towards their message....which made them fade away

He's out now fella ,has been for a couple of years he wont be seen at Highbury though ,the whole BNP thing never took off at Arsenal, far too much a melting pot for that !
Anyone who tried to peddle their leaflets or magazines got weighed in pronto and that happened more than once !

[QuartzGooner]

Herd

The foreskin chant is not harmless, it contributes to a hostile atmosphere though probably most of the kids singing it do it as anti-Spurs rather than any deep racist feeling.

[Bradywasking]

Kevin Kilbane has reported (to someone, Police or FA I'm not sure) West Ham Supporters singing a song about Harry Kane containing the word "mong"...He (Kilbane) has a daughter with Downes Syndrome and takes the word "mong" to refer to similarly afflicted people. He says he wants to bring his daughter to games along with her siblings without having to listen to such chanting.
I do not disagree with him, I sympathise with him, I think he is correct in trying to provide a normal life for his child and her siblings. Normal life for the Kilbanes is football.

But this is going to be impossible. As much as we may want the world to be nice and fluffy at all times we cannot sanatise it to such an extent that groups of men going to football are going to be careful what they say, sing or chant. Yes the word "mong" could easily be construed as offensive and hurtful but it also a word that has entered modern dialogue to refer to someone being stupid or acting stupid etc.

I am 100% against racist chanting, I am !00% against offensive chanting. I have joined in a few not politically correct songs at Arsenal games or in the pub or concourse before games. I didn't see it as being particularly offensive but in hindsight the guy not singing may have been Jewish.

As noble as Kevin Kilbane's intentions are I think this can become an obsession , are we going to sit in stadiums and listen to what the opposing fans , or even our own, are singing or chanting to check if they are politically correct ?.
One spin off of this if it becomes an obsession will be a repeat of the "they started it" rubbish from the Man Utd and Liverpool fans of a few years back over the offensive chanting about their respective tragedies.

[dave75]

Given the current media climate, is it wise to post a video of Arsenal fans signing this song? Tho I suspect it is probably easy enough to find countless such videos on you tube.

[LeGinge (Northern Branch)]

Racism is racism. Yes there are degrees of racism but all of them are abhorrent and have zero place in any part of society. For people to excuse or explain the use of foreskin song on kids not knowing what they are singing is ridiculous - since when can racism, xenophobia, homophobia etc... be accepted due to ignorance?

There does now seem to be concern throughout football fans as to what they can and can't sing. For me it's simple, if what you are shouting / chanting / singing would be the cause of embarrassment, shame or offense in a social gathering away from football it's probably embarrassing, shameful and or offensive. But if you want to sing these songs that's your right - just don't cry foul if and when you are recorded doing it (especially when on PUBLIC transport).

I genuinely cringe at that foreskin song. and have witnessed 'hissing' noises from a very small number of people on a few occasions (mostly away but have heard it around the Emirates) For me the real shame is on myself for not having the courage to voice my distaste while it's happening.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing...

[Robin_L]

That "I've got foreskin haven't you" song, you hear that one a lot and I imagine the majority of people who sing that one after a few beers aren't genuinely anti-Semites, it's just herd mentality after a few beers.

As for the gas chamber one, there's no excusing that one whatsoever, if you hear anyone singing that one then 100% they're a nasty little cunt

[This Is The Daybreak]

Thankfully have never heard the hissing before so it seems to be in the very small minority. Heard it was more common during the 80s though. The foreskin one has to stop though, hear it at far too many away games. A revised one which we occasionally sung was we'll be running round Tottenham (or Chelsea) with our titles hanging out singing we've got ten more (or however many more) than you. The foreskin one does seem to be an anti Tottenham thing but still, is really stupid and shouldn't be sung. Am embarrassed every time I hear it considering a lot of our own support are Jewish.

[n7gooner]

Where do you draw the line? I agree the hissing and gas chambers songs are disgusting and have no place in football or life but now its getting to the point where any criticism or comment can be branded as offensive. Is it offensive to scousers to say they are all on the dole? Is it offensive to call stoke fans orcs?

[Theoperator]

All this collective patting yourselves on the back is great, but I've heard enough gas chamber impressions and all that hissing shit at away grounds (mainly London derbies) to know that we aren't exactly innocent.

Am wondering actually whether fans are "sushhhhhhhhing more than any gas chamber hiss Robin, have heard it at many grounds when the atmosphere has gone quiet (hence the shush) cant think thats seen as a racist chant, you hear it a lot at Villa as the crowd are pretty crap at singing.

Racism is racism. Yes there are degrees of racism but all of them are abhorrent and have zero place in any part of society. For people to excuse or explain the use of foreskin song on kids not knowing what they are singing is ridiculous - since when can racism, xenophobia, homophobia etc... be accepted due to ignorance?

There does now seem to be concern throughout football fans as to what they can and can't sing. For me it's simple, if what you are shouting / chanting / singing would be the cause of embarrassment, shame or offense in a social gathering away from football it's probably embarrassing, shameful and or offensive. But if you want to sing these songs that's your right - just don't cry foul if and when you are recorded doing it (especially when on PUBLIC transport).

I genuinely cringe at that foreskin song. and have witnessed 'hissing' noises from a very small number of people on a few occasions (mostly away but have heard it around the Emirates) For me the real shame is on myself for not having the courage to voice my distaste while it's happening.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing...

Personally I find the foreskin song rather amusing though the F##kin j\\#w isnt, but there are so many songs close to the edge and cause potential embarrassment, the Ashley one, Nasri, and esp the Robin one are all offensive and TBH many would find any swearing offensive. Its getting to mean that all we will hear going forward are mindless super Jack/Thom/Nick chants, Giroud or Sannnttiiiii cazooooorla or more OOOOOOSssssspinnaaaaaa stuff, which doesnt help the famous atmosphere at all. Even the hate tottenham" could be seen as offensive. The atmosphere on tubes towards games are hugely helped by fans singing close to the edge stuff IMHO.

All becoming too sanitised sadly

[clockender1]

However I would suggest that if anyone is of a delicate nature and seriously offended by the ridiculous but harmless "I've got a foreskin haven't you" then perhaps they shouldn't attend football matches .

You can argue that most of the chant is ridiculous and harmless, not sure about the 'fcking Jew' at the end though. (2.52 on this video for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PGsGzQ_lp0 )

Incidentally media focus is currently shifting to West Ham for this exact chant http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31586198

west ham's anti spurs chant has always been "the west ham ran through tottenham with their willies hanging out...and this is what they said.....FUCK OFF.....we've got foreskins you aint, you aint..."

that one there in the video with the "foreskin aven't you...fucking jew" line i've never heard down there.

thats a bit OTT for the Boleyn ground imho - they have quite a large Jewish support too, the largest Jewish congregation in london is in fact in West Ham, just round the corner from Wanstead Park - bigger than Golders Green.

i think if you sang that down there i'm pretty sure you'd get a slap.

which is quite right too. no place for that.

[safcftm]

Obviously the pushing of the bloke and chanting that followed was a disgrace but one thing I get pissed off about is the current trend for a witch-hunt. The daily mail (at the forefront of such things) posted an article which I think was absolutely shocking (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... rdeal.html).

This article mentions the name of a Chelsea fan that was on the train, it posts pictures of him, they've contacted his employer to ask for a quote, they decide its worth mentioning how much his schooling cost (as if it matters), they bring up his political affiliations. Half way down in the article, they also have a very quick line to mention that he might actually be totally innocent in all this. He was on the train. That's all they have. They know it wasn't him who pushed the lad and they have no evidence to suggest he joined in the song. He may, believe it or not, simply been a Chelsea fan on a train going to a match who happened to be in the vicinity of a group of racist arseholes (always likely when following Chelsea to be fair).

Despite this they've decided to publish something which could seriously put his future in jeopardy and it is absolutely irresponsible of them to do so. If they had the name of the bloke who pushed him then fair enough, name and shame the wanker but this? It just seems like they have jumped on the bandwagon of people who want to show how outraged and offended they are and they seem to have received very little criticism for it. If the lad isn't charged I hope he can sue the fuckers.

Just thought I'd have a moan about the paper. Like i say I hope they manage to find out exactly who was responsible and give them life time bans, I just can't agree with the media jumping the gun and putting peoples livelihoods at risk.

Anyway, I'm sure we could all do with being cheered up at the minute so I'll end my post with the news that the police have released a new image of the fans suspected of racially abusing the man in Paris; if any of you know any of the people in the picture please report them as a matter of urgency...

[g88ner]

Obviously the pushing of the bloke and chanting that followed was a disgrace but one thing I get pissed off about is the current trend for a witch-hunt. The daily mail (at the forefront of such things) posted an article which I think was absolutely shocking (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... rdeal.html).

This article mentions the name of a Chelsea fan that was on the train, it posts pictures of him, they've contacted his employer to ask for a quote, they decide its worth mentioning how much his schooling cost (as if it matters), they bring up his political affiliations. Half way down in the article, they also have a very quick line to mention that he might actually be totally innocent in all this. He was on the train. That's all they have. They know it wasn't him who pushed the lad and they have no evidence to suggest he joined in the song. He may, believe it or not, simply been a Chelsea fan on a train going to a match who happened to be in the vicinity of a group of racist arseholes (always likely when following Chelsea to be fair).

Despite this they've decided to publish something which could seriously put his future in jeopardy and it is absolutely irresponsible of them to do so. If they had the name of the bloke who pushed him then fair enough, name and shame the wanker but this? It just seems like they have jumped on the bandwagon of people who want to show how outraged and offended they are and they seem to have received very little criticism for it. If the lad isn't charged I hope he can sue the fuckers.

Just thought I'd have a moan about the paper. Like i say I hope they manage to find out exactly who was responsible and give them life time bans, I just can't agree with the media jumping the gun and putting peoples livelihoods at risk.

Spot on mate. That is a shocking article - he could be guilty of nothing more than travelling on public transport.

An article shamelessly naming the bloke, giving details about his schooling, career and even talking to his boss... and then hidden half way down is this admission...

There is no suggestion that either was involved in the pushing of the passenger or the racist chanting.
However, having been inside the carriage during the incident, both will be key witnesses for the police.

All that unwanted publicity for the paper to say he may be a useful witness.

It's shocking that the press can behave like that... and the scary thing is, it could have been any of us!

[QuartzGooner]

Am taking this off on a tangent but...

thats a bit OTT for the Boleyn ground imho - they have quite a large Jewish support too, the largest Jewish congregation in london is in fact in West Ham, just round the corner from Wanstead Park - bigger than Golders Green.

Possibly in 1940 but not these days.
West Ham is not a very Jewish area and Ilford community has moved away over last 20 years.

Not so many West Ham Jews, most Jews with "East End ancestry" are Arsenal or Spurs.
We tended to get into football around the time of the first world war, by which time some of us had moved away from Aldgate, Shoreditch and Whitechapel and up to Hackney, Finsbury Park and Highbury, where the London born second generation were more in tune with football than their immigrant parents, hence big Arsenal Jewish support from 1920's onwards, and Spurs also as people moved a bit further North towards Stamford Hill and Edmonton.*

*For more see Anthony Clavane's excellent book "Does Your Rabbi Know You're Here?"

[A11M11]

I just can't agree with the media jumping the gun and putting peoples livelihoods at risk.

There's an election coming , how better to undermine UKIP than keep associating them with racism.